Memorial found in a skip

[Rob Rolfe]

Welcome - a number of us have enjoyed working on your "puzzle" and hope we have contributed a bit. It has been a fascinating journey. We would be interested to know what other info you are still missing so we might be able to have a go at the missing pieces.

If you look here https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/erdington-postmen-heroes-remembered.43365/ you will see we have traced a memorial before - thanks to Astoness (Lyn).

As for how it works - post a request for help and members will chip in - you can then decide what is relevant. The site covers all sorts - trivial and serious.

Thank you, it's been a rollercoaster since Friday when I got a message from a BBC reporter. The big breakthrough came when a man who has researched fallen WW1 soldiers from free (nonconformist/dissenting) churches got in touch - he has an enormous database. This was Saturday afternoon and he was away for the weekend. I checked it all out (including names listed as dead who did not appear on the memorial) . The final clincher (for me that is, I am a mathematician by background and have a very high standard of proof) did not come until yesterday morning when I saw this picture. The memorial is very similar as you can see and is in Carr's Lane. Nonconformist memorials tend not to have ranks etc (all being equal before God), nor is the quotation biblical (the Moseley Road quotation is from the Battle Hymn of the Republic).

 

[Rob Rolfe]

This is what I wrote for the Stone family (I am in touch with several distant relatives):
Driver 820762 Alfred Theophilus Stone, Royal Field Artillery
Private 41174 Sydney George Stone, 1st Battalion Dorset Regiment
Lance Corporal 203553 William John Stone, Rifle Brigade

The three sons of Alfred Stone, a carpenter, were all born in Balsall Heath, the family living in Brunswick Road and then Edgbaston Road, and later in Vincent Road. Two daughters, Annie and Alice, completed the family.
Their mother, also Annie, died in 1906, and Alfred married Nellie Long (the boys' Sunday School teacher). Alfred, the eldest son, moved out and worked as a piano frame maker. Sydney worked as a baker’s assistant.
This heartbreaking notice appeared in the Birmingham Mail in November 1918, just before the Armistice:

William has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.
Sydney is buried in the Sequehart British Cemetery No. 2 in Aisne in France.
Alfred Stone, the surviving brother, had married Louisa Warden in 1913, with son Alfred being born the next year and son Sydney in 1915. Alfred had enlisted in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment in September 1914, but was discharged after three weeks on medical grounds. However, he later joined the Royal Field Artillery as a Driver (not what it seems at first sight, a Driver worked with, looked after and rode the war horses which pulled the guns).
Alfred survived the fighting, and was due to be demobbed. On pre-demobilisation furlough, Alfred died in Dudley War Hospital on 3rd July 1919, from bronchitis and heart failure. His widow Louisa received £6 17s 3d from his effects, and a War Gratuity of £23 10s was invested in the Post Office Savings Bank on behalf of his children.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Welcome - a number of us have enjoyed working on your "puzzle" and hope we have contributed a bit. It has been a fascinating journey. We would be interested to know what other info you are still missing so we might be able to have a go at the missing pieces.

If you look here https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/erdington-postmen-heroes-remembered.43365/ you will see we have traced a memorial before - thanks to Astoness (Lyn).

As for how it works - post a request for help and members will chip in - you can then decide what is relevant. The site covers all sorts - trivial and serious.

Many thanks, the mails are coming in all the time so if I don't have the answers I'll ask here!

 

[mrsfry]

Fabulous to see this puzzle solved! Well done, and great to see all the information about the individuals concerned, too.

I wonder why so many of the men seem to have identified with denominations other than Congregationalists. I could understand more if they were all from other Free churches, but weren't there RC and Anglicans there, too?

Another question, when you have time, Rob (!)... any idea on where the plaque was between the church's demolition and its discovery on that skip?

 

[pjmburns]

Rob - just a couple of questions. The plaque in #331 contains the name "Carrs Lane Church" - the plaque you were researching has no "church name" - did your contact have any idea whether it was common to have the name of the Church or not? Secondly - do we know why these names are on a congregational plaque?

 

[Lady Penelope]

Thanks for that Penny - I am glad it was not a badly written "workhouse" - I am sure they used Birmingham University and also Joseph Chamberlain's Highbury amongst others.

Janice, sadly there were so many wounded that they commandeered many large buildings including workhouses. An interesting point I thought (although, sorry, slightly off topic) was why some of the men were treated in hospitals many miles from home. This was because, as the war progressed, hospitals began to specialise in different injuries and the men were sent to the best place for each of them, I hadn't realised this.

 

[mikejee]

Hollymore and Rubery hospitals were also utilised as war hospitals. I think the wounds likely to be encountered were so different from the wounds normally treated in normal hospitals that the expertise was concentrated in places not too far from, and with good rail links to, ports where the wounded were originally received .

 

[pjmburns]

My grandfather (a brummie) was treated in a former asylum in Hertfordshire for severe leg injuries.

 

[Lady Penelope]

Janice, I've just noticed that Rob mentions 'Dudley War Hospital' in the last paragraph of his post #332.

 

[carolina]

 

[wam]

Now wondering if the JE Hardman, H Bates and W Stanley on the Tindall Street memorial are the same men as on the Balsall Heath one ? Viv.

I'd wondered what happened to the Tindal Street memorial. The picture looks like it's been in someone's shed for a while.

 

[pjmburns]

The site does not really make it clear where it is. I agree that looks like someone's shed. Rotting wood at the bottom.

 

[wam]

I had this notice today. It's for an Exhibition at Emmanuel Church, Wylde Green on the 10th of November. I'm told the memorial this has been about will be part of the exhibition. That's the one we started this thread for not the others mentioned.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Had the BBC on the phone again today. Still a total mystery where the plaque was 1950s-2012ish. Not at Ladypool Road, the daughter church.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Rob - just a couple of questions. The plaque in #331 contains the name "Carrs Lane Church" - the plaque you were researching has no "church name" - did your contact have any idea whether it was common to have the name of the Church or not? Secondly - do we know why these names are on a congregational plaque?

Sorry for late reply, still working on this: the Congregational Church at that time, that is the Moseley Road one and its three 'daughter' churches, had a membership of 588 - and it seems now that at least three of the names came from the Ladypool Road church. The other factor is that the church may just have been the 'local' church - many people were not too concerned about the niceties of inter-denominational disputes and may have attended their nearest church - or, for instance, been in the Boys' Brigade or similar.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Another, but I have been unable to find his occupation before he joined up - Sydney Currie BETTS. He had two brothers also serving.

Maurice

Sydney worked as an apprentice photo engraver at 15.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Some more info on 2nd Lt George William Bowater service #1029 (another early number) d.20/12/17 was with the Royal Artillery and the Royal Field Artillery and was a Farrier in the army

Viv

George Bowater was the nephew of Alderman Bowater, the Mayor of Birmingham and the driving force behind the formation of the Birmingham Pals' Battalions - I only mention this because it was the central point made in the letter of recommendation for officer training from his commanding officer.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Recommending that it would be worth listing the memorial on the Imperial War Museums site for memorials here https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials

Interestingly there's an ‘A Stone’ listed in the IWM records on a memorial at Brandwood End Cemetery. Could this be our ‘A Stone’ listed on the Balsall Heath memorial ? Viv.

I'm in touch with the Stone family, several of whose members are buried in Brandwood End.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

No worries Viv - this is driving us all round the bend . There is a pension record for A T Stone - he was only in the army a short while - enlisted 5 Sept 1914 and discharged as medically unfit on 28 Sept - length of service 24 days. The register of effects suggest he died in "War Hs" - I wonder if that is workhouse??

Yes, this is he. Had a 'dilated heart'. Died in Dudley War Hospital from bronchitis, pneumonia and heart disease.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

There are 2 issues with the boys records - first the state of the log book as it says This volume is in very poor condition and should not be served. Second the fact that the volume contains material covered by the 100 year rule.
That said I suspect that these entries are not updated so it would be worth enquiring - pointing out that the people you want are deceased.

I've had some experience with the 100-year rule at both the National Archives and the London Metropolitan Archives: If there is a book containing names you have to prove that all the names have been dead for 100 years....

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Birmingham Daily Post July 1917. RIP

View attachment 127742

I am in touch with Fred Cross's nephew (who was born long after Fred died). He says it has meant quite a lot to him and his sister to find out about the memorial, as they did not think Fred was commemorated anywhere.

 

[pjmburns]

I did wonder if the connection was a club or BB or scouts or similar.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

“but so far, community searches and discussions with local history groups have proved fruitless.”

No mention of BHS in name. I don’t agree that searches have been fruitless! It has discovered the history of the men who would have been forgotten.

I am not responsible for BBC editorialising!

 

[Rob Rolfe]

I am not responsible for BBC editorialising!

They interviewed us for two hours to produce three minutes of television.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

What a brave young man - Beresford got an MC. I wondered what part our group of men played in his pre-war life ? Viv.

View attachment 127797

Oddly this report is wrong about he award of the MC, which was gazetted posthumously in September 1918. The citation reads; "“For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when forward observation officer. He remained at his post until his communications were cut and he was nearly surrounded. He eventually brought in very useful information. He subsequently displayed great coolness and gallantry while temporarily in command of his battery.”

 

[Rob Rolfe]

i cant help but think that the answer to this plaque is simple but as the saying goes its only easy if you know the answers

also considering the internet and media coverage not 1 descendent of the men who may still live in brum has either been traced or come forward well not to our knowledge anyway...we were very lucky with our postmans plaque at least 4 out of the 7 names on it had family come forward and family members of 3 of the men were able to attend the re dedication service at the NMA...so onward and upwards ...

lyn

I am now in touch with several relatives (although none now live in Balsall Heath and only one in Birmingham), as a result of publicity and trawling family trees. We hope that several relatives will be attending our church on Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Viv,

I'll add a bit more about James Alfred MASON, although he comes under the "Unaccounted for" category in RAF terms. At the time of his death he was serving at RAF Aston Down (formerly RAF Minchinhampton during WW1) in Gloucestershire with 55 Operational Training Unit and flying a Typhoon 1b serial number JP433. His service record and flying logbook are, like all of those relating to WW2, still with the RAF and have not yet been released to the National Archives.

During the two years previous to his death on 20 March 1945, JP433 had been involved in several crashes with other pilots and had been patched up, but I fear we are not going to get information about the circumstances of his death until the records are released for public consumption.

Maurice

Thanks so much for this info.

 

[Rob Rolfe]

Looks interesting ...

For information, three airmen died in the accident at RAF Aston Down on 20-Mar-1945,
Typhoon JP433 55OTU, collided with an Anson aircraft on approach to RAF Aston Down.
Mason James Alfred F/S (Birmingham)

Anson DJ471 was hit by a Typhoon JP433 55 O.T.U. whilst on approach at RAF Aston Down
Brown James Waldron T/O (Llandudno)
Hill Frank F/O (Hopton St Margaret)

Thanks so much for this info

 

[Rob Rolfe]

I have started another thread on yet another missing memorial, the thread is GEC memorial plaque now in WW1 discussion.

 

[carolina]

A fitting end.