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Matilda Mayes

Astoness said:
oh thats a pity vixen...just in case you dont have it i found a death for a matilda johns in birmingham...born 1868 died 1926 aged 58

lyn
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Maybe if someone is ever going to birmingham archives library the wolfson Centre, to look at their own family history, they could take a look at the reference information I provided for matilda so I can move forward.
 
it is possible that i could do that for you vixen...i do hold a CARN card although it needs renewing but thats no problem and i would have to make an appointment to view the records so it could take a couple of weeks as i would have to check the days i am free

lyn
 
MWS said:
George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.
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yes i agree about georges death of 1912 MWS..just been tinkering about with george and matildas children and i think have found the marriage cert on ancestry for their son william thomas johns info reads

date...march 23rd 1918...both living at 3/168 lawley street
place st james the less church ashted
william thomas johns aged 22 to
maud beatrice richmond
williams father is george and is deceased and his occupation was brass dresser..he is down as brass dresser on the 1901 census
williams occuption is soldier so it looks like he married just before he went into battle..will have a look later unless someone beats me to it to see if his service records survived
 
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Astoness said:
it is possible that i could do that for you vixen...i do hold a CARN card although it needs renewing but thats no problem and i would have to make an appointment to view the records so it could take a couple of weeks as i would have to check the days i am free

lyn
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That would be amazing Lyn if you were able. I've come to a bit of a halt with matilda and if you're able to see/get the records I would be so grateful.
 
Astoness said:
yes i agree about georges death of 1912 MWS..just been tinkering about with george and matildas children and i think have found the marriage cert on ancestry for their son william thomas johns info reads

date...march 23rd 1918
place st james the less church ashted
william thomas johns aged 22 to
maud beatrice richmond
williams father is george and is deceased and his occupation was brass dresser..he is down as brass dresser on the 1901 census
williams occuption is soldier so it looks like he married just before he went into battle..will have a look later unless someone beats me to it to see if his service records survived
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Oh interesting. If his service records exist can you attach a copy? Likewise I can't find a marriage certificate even tho matilda and George's census's says married. Also the 1871, 1881, 1901 census gives birth years from 1866-1869.

1911 census 4 Loxton St, Aston has matilda on it aged 42 1869


1901 Court House 7 Essex St, Birmingham. Year 1866 aged 35


1891 Curzon St Aston. Matilda aged 23. So 1868
 
With reference to Matilda I would say that, for whatever reason, she and George never actually married.

I would also say that the birth registered for Matilda Masey in Bham, Mar qtr 1867 is likely to be hers.

However, unless the records for Gem St school at the Library give some relevant information there will be no way to know for certain.

On the 1871 census there is an Eliza Mayes, aged 8, listed in the same place as Matilda. Could be a sister in a similar situation, unfortunately can't see anything else for her.
 
MWS said:
George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.
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I found last night on one of the census's that a portlock lived next door. Think it was the 1939 census 128 bendall rd. And a john W Hadley born in Aston died 1956, his mums maiden name was portlock. Then in 1911 census I think as don't have it to hand, emily portlock married a John W Hadley in 1878. On the 1861 census emily portlock is 8mths old at 99 Lancaster St.
 
MWS said:
With reference to Matilda I would say that, for whatever reason, she and George never actually married.

I would also say that the birth registered for Matilda Masey in Bham, Mar qtr 1867 is likely to be hers.

However, unless the records for Gem St school at the Library give some relevant information there will be no way to know for certain.

On the 1871 census there is an Eliza Mayes, aged 8, listed in the same place as Matilda. Could be a sister in a similar situation, unfortunately can't see anything else for her.
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RE matilda masey born 1867.. If matilda mayes/Johns died aged 58 in 1926 that would make her birth year 1868??
 
well spotted on the 1871 MWS i did not notice eliza mayes aged 8 also at gem st..very likely the sister of matilda...if we cant find any other records for the birth you found of matilda masey 1867(we could also check for eliza) then i think you could be correct in thinking that gem st just got the letters of the surname mixed up as the letters in masey also makes up mayes and through life the girls just assumed their surname was mayes so just an error in writing it down by gem st...i also agree that george and matilda never did go on to marry..
 
Vixen said:
That would be amazing Lyn if you were able. I've come to a bit of a halt with matilda and if you're able to see/get the records I would be so grateful.
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hi vixen...i am quite busy at the min and will also be having a break away soon but i will try and get to library for you to look at gem st records so please bear with me...

lyn
 
Vixen said:
Thanks Lyn and if and when you can, its okay
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thats ok vixen...as said its finding the time to visit the library for you but i have not forgotten...got all the ref numbers written down for gem st and will sort it out as soon as i can...all the best

lyn
 
ok vixen...i shall be going to the library next wednesday to view the gem st industrial school records for matilda mayes...will also see if there is anything for what i presume is her sister eliza mayes as they are there at the same time...please be prepared that the info i find may not be what we are looking but fingers crossed i will come back with something of use to you...i am also allowed to take photographs of anything that maybe of interest in the records...fingers crossed

lyn
 
Thank you. Anything that may help but I know records don't always give what we are looking for. I'm revisiting John W Hadley 1857 and Emily portlock 1858 as Emily's records have thrown me. I know she married John 1878 as I have that marriage ban etc but after getting married the records for Emily throw doubt on the children she had. Her birth years range from 58-63. And so too the children had and her parents. I'm trying to figure that out, which is doing my head in lol so anything on matilda may be a welcome relief lol
 
Astoness said:
it is possible that i could do that for you vixen...i do hold a CARN card although it needs renewing but thats no problem and i would have to make an appointment to view the records so it could take a couple of weeks as i would have to check the days i am free

lyn
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Hi Lyn, hoping you may still be around on here. We spoke some time ago about the possibility of you visiting Birmingham Archives for me re Matilda Mayes/Masey and the Industrial School records they held for her. Would this still be a possibility?
 
hi vixen...i am still here but have not been to the library since we last spoke..of course covid did hold things up ...i am just going to note down what i said i would try and look up for you and as soon as i can i will visit the library as i do have quite a few things i need to look up...

lyn
 
Ah seems the posts have gone for now....but just prior to the site going down I was looking into the godparents of matilda mayes and Eliza...heres my notes on it....there is a link with william long and Ann Killmartin who we touched on last time the sight was up.

1871 Census https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2939577:7619

William Kilmartin born Ireland about 1839

Ann Kilmartin born Yarmouth, Norfolk about 1843. Down as wife to William Kilmartin

Three children listed, Willliam born 1860 birmingham mmn

KILMARTIN, WILLIAMBOSENWEIGHT
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 141


John T Martin, 1868 mmn Masey! - this one has thrown me for now

KILMARTIN, JOHN THOMASMASEY
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 126
No record for Catherine Kilmartin born about 1871

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/20999741:8767 1861, willliam long, mothers name Mary Long.
William Kilmartin born Ireland about 1839
Ann wife Kilmartin born Yarmouth
Mother mary long born 1811 Ireland

1901 Census, Ann Long wife of William Long. William Long born Ireland. Married in Birmingham 1860 to Ann Bessingwait
Think this is another transcription error. James preston Mayes/Maisey married Eliza Eliza Bassingthwaighte

Eliza Bassingthwaighte
Gender​
Female
Marriage Date​
1845
Marriage Place​
St. Nicholas, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
Father​
George Bassingthwaighte
Spouse​
James Preston Mayes



daughter

LONG, BEATRICE		MAISEY
GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 79
LONG, ALBERTMAISEY
GRO Reference: 1881 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 125
Haven't looked at Robert Jefferies yet whose on Matilda's baptism record. If sabina is Irish is she perhaps related or linked to William Long who also appeared on her marriage record as a witness.
 
Not sure what is going on here but in post #48 you wrote
No record for Catherine Kilmartin born about 1871
Her birth seems to be registered in the name Long

1713115652539.png
 
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MWS said:
At first glance it looks like everyone is associated with the Mayes/Maisey side and nothing on Sabina's side.
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Yes I would say with Killmartin definitely. I havent looked for Matilda's godparents in too much depth yet. William Long is listed as a witness to Sabina and Thomas's marriage. I was also wondering if the godparent on Eliza's record is the latin name of Edward? Very hard to read it.
 

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pjmburns said:
Not sure what is going on here but in post #48 your wrote
No record for Catherine Kilmartin born about 1871
Her birth seems to be registered in the name Long

View attachment 190610
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I think Ann had that as a maiden name, sister perhaps of Eliza Besenwaite who married James Preston Mayes who I think is James Mayes, thomas's brother as their mum was Margaret Preston. Ann also married William Long.
This is the marriage entry for Eliza who I think may be Ann's sister?
Eliza Bassingthwaighte
Registration Year1845
Registration QuarterApr-May-Jun
Registration districtYarmouth
Inferred CountyNorfolk
Volume13
Page656
 
Ann and william long are also down as witnesses to the marriage ofMatilda, James Mayes daughter to Thomas Collins. I wonder if he is related to Sarah Collins who I saw on one of the census's as a servant...cant remember on which or whose census tho....but linked with robert, thomas or william perhaps...or killmartin...will need to check..................Sarah Collins is a servant on the 1871 census of William Killmartin, in birmingham. Havent yet found the birth reg for matilda maisey born around 1849
 

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Also I looked up the age of what was considered a minor re marriage around sabina's time. A minor was under 21 but.....
The age of marriage under civil law was 14 for boys and 12 for girls (the age of puberty); however this was inconsistent with criminal law which set the age of consent at 16.
This remained the situation in England & Wales and Scotland until 1929.
 
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