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Matilda Mayes

Vixen

master brummie
anything is possible vixen but without concrete evidence nothing is certain..as a lot of us have found if the evidence is just not there there is no chance of going further back but its too early to say that...something may yet turn up....

lyn
Just spoke to birmingham library archives. Records for matilda do exist with the national/birmingham archives I think including parent details, length of detention, age etc and discharge book. But not digitised. Ms994/14 and ms994/23. Is there any way to view these or get a copy without travelling to view. Is there anyone on here near the archives who could find out at all?
 

MWS

master brummie
And as Lyn has said sometimes people didn't marry for various reasons. Maybe they planned to marry at some stage but George died before they could.

And there is no way I'd pay for a researcher.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
this is what i was thinking MWS that matilda was illegitimate and maybe not even given her fathers surname...so many possibilities at the min..

lyn
 

Vixen

master brummie
this is what i was thinking MWS that matilda was illegitimate and maybe not even given her fathers surname...so many possibilities at the min..

lyn
Just spoke to birmingham library archives. Records for matilda do exist with the national/birmingham archives I think including parent details, length of detention, age etc and discharge book. But not digitised. Ms994/14 and ms994/23. Is there any way to view these or get a copy without travelling to view. Is there anyone on here near the archives who could find out at all?
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
Just spoke to birmingham library archives. Records for matilda do exist with the national/birmingham archives I think including parent details, length of detention, age etc and discharge book. But not digitised. Ms994/14 and ms994/23. Is there any way to view these or get a copy without travelling to view. Is there anyone on here near the archives who could find out at all?

excellent now you are getting somewhere...sounds to me like the library have the actual records in book form...you wont be able to just go there on speck and view them and you have to hold a CARN card to view anything in the archives dept and an appointment has to be made...where do you live

lyn
 

Vixen

master brummie
excellent now you are getting somewhere...sounds to me like the library have the actual records in book form...you wont be able to just go there on speck and view them and you have to hold a CARN card to view anything in the archives dept and an appointment has to be made...where do you live

lyn
East Sussex a long way away!!
 

Vixen

master brummie
And as Lyn has said sometimes people didn't marry for various reasons. Maybe they planned to marry at some stage but George died before they could.

And there is no way I'd pay for a researcher.
Can't afford it to be honest. The bits I do know someone kindly found out for me. A week ago I was looking for a long lost relative and despite looking for years they found him in a few days!! Now wanting to know my history but matilda is getting me stuck lol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
yes thats a distance..i was just thinking that surely there must be way around this as some people are disabled and just cant visit the library...would it be worth phoning them up again..explain where you live and cant travel ...i think but dont know for certain that the staff could look up gem st records and just email you the relevant details you are after...think its worth a try

lyn
 

Vixen

master brummie
yes thats a distance..i was just thinking that surely there must be way around this as some people are disabled and just cant visit the library...would it be worth phoning them up again..explain where you live and cant travel ...i think but dont know for certain that the staff could look up gem st records and just email you the relevant details you are after...think its worth a try

lyn
You would think so but nope they won't.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
oh thats a pity vixen...just in case you dont have it i found a death for a matilda johns in birmingham...born 1868 died 1926 aged 58

lyn
 

Vixen

master brummie
oh thats a pity vixen...just in case you dont have it i found a death for a matilda johns in birmingham...born 1868 died 1926 aged 58

lyn
Maybe if someone is ever going to birmingham archives library the wolfson Centre, to look at their own family history, they could take a look at the reference information I provided for matilda so I can move forward.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
it is possible that i could do that for you vixen...i do hold a CARN card although it needs renewing but thats no problem and i would have to make an appointment to view the records so it could take a couple of weeks as i would have to check the days i am free

lyn
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.

yes i agree about georges death of 1912 MWS..just been tinkering about with george and matildas children and i think have found the marriage cert on ancestry for their son william thomas johns info reads

date...march 23rd 1918...both living at 3/168 lawley street
place st james the less church ashted
william thomas johns aged 22 to
maud beatrice richmond
williams father is george and is deceased and his occupation was brass dresser..he is down as brass dresser on the 1901 census
williams occuption is soldier so it looks like he married just before he went into battle..will have a look later unless someone beats me to it to see if his service records survived
 
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Vixen

master brummie
it is possible that i could do that for you vixen...i do hold a CARN card although it needs renewing but thats no problem and i would have to make an appointment to view the records so it could take a couple of weeks as i would have to check the days i am free

lyn
That would be amazing Lyn if you were able. I've come to a bit of a halt with matilda and if you're able to see/get the records I would be so grateful.
 

Vixen

master brummie
yes i agree about georges death of 1912 MWS..just been tinkering about with george and matildas children and i think have found the marriage cert on ancestry for their son william thomas johns info reads

date...march 23rd 1918
place st james the less church ashted
william thomas johns aged 22 to
maud beatrice richmond
williams father is george and is deceased and his occupation was brass dresser..he is down as brass dresser on the 1901 census
williams occuption is soldier so it looks like he married just before he went into battle..will have a look later unless someone beats me to it to see if his service records survived
Oh interesting. If his service records exist can you attach a copy? Likewise I can't find a marriage certificate even tho matilda and George's census's says married. Also the 1871, 1881, 1901 census gives birth years from 1866-1869.

1911 census 4 Loxton St, Aston has matilda on it aged 42 1869


1901 Court House 7 Essex St, Birmingham. Year 1866 aged 35


1891 Curzon St Aston. Matilda aged 23. So 1868
 

MWS

master brummie
With reference to Matilda I would say that, for whatever reason, she and George never actually married.

I would also say that the birth registered for Matilda Masey in Bham, Mar qtr 1867 is likely to be hers.

However, unless the records for Gem St school at the Library give some relevant information there will be no way to know for certain.

On the 1871 census there is an Eliza Mayes, aged 8, listed in the same place as Matilda. Could be a sister in a similar situation, unfortunately can't see anything else for her.
 

Vixen

master brummie
George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.
I found last night on one of the census's that a portlock lived next door. Think it was the 1939 census 128 bendall rd. And a john W Hadley born in Aston died 1956, his mums maiden name was portlock. Then in 1911 census I think as don't have it to hand, emily portlock married a John W Hadley in 1878. On the 1861 census emily portlock is 8mths old at 99 Lancaster St.
 

Vixen

master brummie
With reference to Matilda I would say that, for whatever reason, she and George never actually married.

I would also say that the birth registered for Matilda Masey in Bham, Mar qtr 1867 is likely to be hers.

However, unless the records for Gem St school at the Library give some relevant information there will be no way to know for certain.

On the 1871 census there is an Eliza Mayes, aged 8, listed in the same place as Matilda. Could be a sister in a similar situation, unfortunately can't see anything else for her.
RE matilda masey born 1867.. If matilda mayes/Johns died aged 58 in 1926 that would make her birth year 1868??
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
well spotted on the 1871 MWS i did not notice eliza mayes aged 8 also at gem st..very likely the sister of matilda...if we cant find any other records for the birth you found of matilda masey 1867(we could also check for eliza) then i think you could be correct in thinking that gem st just got the letters of the surname mixed up as the letters in masey also makes up mayes and through life the girls just assumed their surname was mayes so just an error in writing it down by gem st...i also agree that george and matilda never did go on to marry..
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
That would be amazing Lyn if you were able. I've come to a bit of a halt with matilda and if you're able to see/get the records I would be so grateful.

hi vixen...i am quite busy at the min and will also be having a break away soon but i will try and get to library for you to look at gem st records so please bear with me...

lyn
 
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