• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
  • HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
    Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
    im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
    we are now using a backup solution

James Turner Street

This is a fascinating thread, with all the guesses and convolutions. and it seems that it is in its final stage. But, as there is no firm resolution yet it seems that to move on to another name viz. Osborne Street might cloud the issue. Incidentally, I am not familiar with James Turner Street.
 
Radiorails said:
This is a fascinating thread, with all the guesses and convolutions. and it seems that it is in its final stage. But, as there is no firm resolution yet it seems that to move on to another name viz. Osborne Street might cloud the issue. Incidentally, I am not familiar with James Turner Street.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on this Alan and any posts that do not fit the thread topic may be removed.
 
If the Post article is correct about Osborne St then it would only probably have been a suggestion of a name as the directories of 1876, 1878, 1879 and 1880 do not mention it. It is therefore unlikely that any nameplates were put up. As to the suggestion that it changed its name in 1882, I have already mentioned that it appeared, with properties listed, in Kellys directory published 1880 (See below). In addition, R Rusgrove applied for an off-premises alcohol licence at the licensing magistrates on 8.9.1881 at 15 James Turner St.

Kellys_directory_1880_James_Turner_St.jpg
 
I do feel that the key to this is the "James Turner House" that has been said to be nearby prior to the street.
 
According to Chris Upton on Midlands News last night, the street is named after James Turner, Gun Manufacturer.
 
Charlie said:
According to Chris Upton on Midlands News last night, the street is named after James Turner, Gun Manufacturer.
Click to expand...
I spoke to Chris Upton last Wednesday evening about the subject at our local pub "The Old Moseley Arms" he did know then.

I joked with him about it possibly being named after a "gun barrel maker" which I thought was apt as its been reported
that when WM Police raided two addresses in the street last June they found a number of bullets from one property but
no gun was found.

I have seen last nights Midlands Today on iPlayer and they do say "That James Turner was probably a local Gun Maker"

So the jury its still out as no one has yet come up with any contemporary evidence, although the "gun barrel maker"
is as I have always thought the most likely.
 
James Turner Esq. is named on the Pigott Smith 1828 and Soc. For Diffusion of Useful Knowledge map of 1839 as owner of land on the western corner of the Turnpike (Dudley road) and Icknield St. A Mr J Turner is listed in 1841 as living at Lodge Road, and the only businesses listed in 1841 naming a James Turner were Joseph & James Turner, Fisher St (off Legge St, gun barrell manufacturers, ) and a grocer in Deritend. This would all seem to point to the gun barrell manufacturer , as I doubt, at that time, that a grocer's home address would warrant a listing in a local directory . Then only the most affluent or connected were listed in the Court (or private) sections.
 
Still batting for James the button man. He was a man of independent means in 1841 before taking over the family business after his father's death. His father was a gentleman of Heath Green and an officer of the Birmingham Banking Company. His son was also a trustee of the bank. Definitely some evidence of affluence.
 
This is the record of a James Turner acquiring lands in Winson Green including Franklin Street (crossroads with James Turner St):
CR 611/486/1-6 1853-1854
These documents are held at Warwickshire County Record Office

Contents:
Conveyance of land in Franklin Street, Winson Green, Birmingham, from George Norman of Birmingham, brassfounder, to James Turner of Birmingham, gent. Abstract of title to the Mansion House and lands at Winson Green and Birmingham Heath (of which the land in Franklin Street forms part), showing the title of George Norman.
 
In other legal documents in the set with the land purchase are references to "Susan Emily" and "Ann Marie" - the names of James the button man's daughter and wife and daughter.
 
Muddy said:
This is the record of a James Turner acquiring lands in Winson Green including Franklin Street (crossroads with James Turner St):
CR 611/486/1-6 1853-1854
These documents are held at Warwickshire County Record Office

Contents:
Conveyance of land in Franklin Street, Winson Green, Birmingham, from George Norman of Birmingham, brassfounder, to James Turner of Birmingham, gent. Abstract of title to the Mansion House and lands at Winson Green and Birmingham Heath (of which the land in Franklin Street forms part), showing the title of George Norman.
Click to expand...

Muddy said:
In other legal documents in the set with the land purchase are references to "Susan Emily" and "Ann Marie" - the names of James the button man's daughter and wife and daughter.
Click to expand...

This coupled with the extract from the Birmingham Post in 1868 that shows the exchange of land with the executors of the late James Turner Esquire to enable the improvement of Foundry Lane does seem to make James TURNER (c 1792 - 1867) the button maker the front runner.

More details of the "Mansion House" and its lands at Winson Green would no doubt clinch the matter.
 
beat me to it jim...so we have yet another james turner as a candidate...as the article says it was never documented as to just which james turner the street was named after and if that is the case then we will never know..i say we just pick which james turner we like the best lol...good thread though...its got our little grey cells working...

lyn
 
barnard said:
Complete Nonsense

Been to the Library of Birmingham I have further evidence that the most likely candidate was the James Turner (c 1792 - 1867) of Hammond, Turner & Sons, button makers who's estate the street was built on.

Update latter
Click to expand...


thanks barnard...this is really getting interesting now...look forward to anymore updates

lyn
 
Looking forward to the update. The web has run out of steam, but the family seems to have been quite important. They employed 150 people at the button factory and old man John Turner not only was one of the founders of the Birmingham Banking Company (the building is still there) but looks likely as part of the London Birmingham Railway Company that built the first line from Euston to Curzon St. The 1830s Commons enquiry reads just like HS2 and the bank, along with others, failed in the 1860s. All very familiar.

Did you find the Bevan street register?
 
Although it could be said to be only anecdotal but coupled with the evidence from the Birmingham Post dated 1868
and the documents held at the Warwickshire County Record Office and listed by the National Archives (see link below)

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=187-cr611&cid=7-229-2#7-229-2

I believe the report by Garry Smith a local historian in his book “A Walk Up The Green” Published by Brewin Books in 1999

ISBN 1 85858 142 7 adds considerable weight that the James Turner in question is the Button Manufacturer

I enclose a scan from the above book from Chapter 15 ” A House older than the prison” Page 59

upload01.jpg
 
I found this James Turner on the 1851 census,

James TURNER Head M 59 M Button Maker Birmm-WAR
Ann Maria TURNER Wife M 58 F --- Birmm-WAR
Ann Maria TURNER Daur U 32 F --- Birmm-WAR
Helen TURNER Daur U 30 F --- Birmm-WAR
Sarah TURNER Daur U 26 F --- Birmm-WAR
Sophia TURNER Daur U 23 F --- Birmm-WAR
Gertrude TURNER Daur U 19 F --- Birmm-WAR
Mrs. BUCKLEY Serv W 33 F Lady's Maid Birmm-WAR
Jane GODFREY Serv U 20 F Cook Birmm-WAR
Esther GOODWIN Serv U 23 F House Maid Birmm-WAR
John LLOYD Serv U 16 M Butler Birmm-WAR
Address: Winson Green, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2059 Folio: 419 Page: 30 FHL Film: 0332122
 
barnard said:
P.S Does anyone know how to show full size images without the need to click on the thumbnail
Click to expand...
The easiest way to show a full size image is to join and use the Forum Image Hosting.
There are ways with the normal uploads but they are more complicated.
 
Muddy said:
Looking forward to the update. The web has run out of steam, but the family seems to have been quite important. They employed 150 people at the button factory and old man John Turner not only was one of the founders of the Birmingham Banking Company (the building is still there) but looks likely as part of the London Birmingham Railway Company that built the first line from Euston to Curzon St. The 1830s Commons enquiry reads just like HS2 and the bank, along with others, failed in the 1860s. All very familiar.
Click to expand...

In a fairly long life I have noticed that history repeats itself often: just different names and players.

I also go along with the button manufacturer as the most likely person of whom the street is named.
 
Barnard's quote about the James Turner House does seem to make it likely , providing the original information is correct, that this is the real James Turner
 
brummie nick said:
I found this James Turner on the 1851 census,

James TURNER Head M 59 M Button Maker Birmm-WAR
Ann Maria TURNER Wife M 58 F --- Birmm-WAR
Ann Maria TURNER Daur U 32 F --- Birmm-WAR
Helen TURNER Daur U 30 F --- Birmm-WAR
Sarah TURNER Daur U 26 F --- Birmm-WAR
Sophia TURNER Daur U 23 F --- Birmm-WAR
Gertrude TURNER Daur U 19 F --- Birmm-WAR
Mrs. BUCKLEY Serv W 33 F Lady's Maid Birmm-WAR
Jane GODFREY Serv U 20 F Cook Birmm-WAR
Esther GOODWIN Serv U 23 F House Maid Birmm-WAR
John LLOYD Serv U 16 M Butler Birmm-WAR
Address: Winson Green, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2059 Folio: 419 Page: 30 FHL Film: 0332122
Click to expand...
This confirms that we must have got the right James Turner
 
Re: James Turner Street
I am sure that I have read somewhere - still trying to track down reference - that the street was named after button manufacturer James Turner (1792 - 1867) who was a partner in Hammond, Turner and Sons. He occupied a large house which was located at the top of what is now James Turner Street in the vicinity of Foundry School. The house is marked on the map of 1857 - Map of Birmingham and its Environs by C.M. Blood. I think the lodge houses still exist opposite the end of Lodge Road, next to what used to be Dolman's Garage. The house was later occupied by industrialist, Richard Tangye, and was called Winson House.
 
ASimons said:
Re: James Turner Street
I am sure that I have read somewhere - still trying to track down reference - that the street was named after button manufacturer James Turner (1792 - 1867) who was a partner in Hammond, Turner and Sons. He occupied a large house which was located at the top of what is now James Turner Street in the vicinity of Foundry School. The house is marked on the map of 1857 - Map of Birmingham and its Environs by C.M. Blood. I think the lodge houses still exist opposite the end of Lodge Road, next to what used to be Dolman's Garage. The house was later occupied by industrialist, Richard Tangye, and was called Winson House.
Click to expand...
That is basically what Garry Smith says in his book “A Walk Up The Green” mentioned above
 
I think many Members of this Forum had already come to the decision now reported by the Birmingham Mail.
I guess reporters and others may also read the mail here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top