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James Turner Street

barnard

knowlegable brummie
I'm afraid Barnard that your suggestion that the road was named after J R Turner is very unlikely to be correct. The evidence for this, which you could have found for yourself rather than asking for information and being offhand with those who offer it, is that the street name first appears in directories in 1878 and 1879 as just "Turner St", a turning off Foundry Road. The street is not itself listed because either there were as then no buildings upon it , or, more likely, no commercial buildings or those other than domestic houses. By the time it is listed with occupants the name has been changed to James Turner St, presumably because it was realised that there was another turner St in Sparkbrook and people then were beginning to realise having two streets with the same name could cause problems and were thus altering names to eliminate this. It would be very unlikely that a street would be named after someone who was at the very most 27 , however well known a politician he later became, or how many houses he later built.
First of all I am not suggesting that "J R Turner" was the name that the street was named after that was suggested
by the his great-grandson I don't know if that is correct or not but is it a real possibility.

As for me be been offhand - Well is all I was asking for was real information with evidence.

I do not consider an article in the Daily Telegraph as evidence.

You say that the "Turner Street" was later renamed "James Turner Street" and listed just when was that ?

Or do you claim the was in 1877 when J R Tuner (b. !850) was 27 prior to the 1878 and 1879 directories ?

You state that it is likely that the name (Turner Street) was changed to eliminate confusion so just why did they pick on "James" ?
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
As an addition to the source of the name I give the following extract from the Birmingham Post of 5.2.1868, of a council meeting the day before . Here there is mentioned an exchange of land with the executors of the late James Turner Esquire. to enable the improvement of Foundry Lane. So James Turner must have owned land in that area and negotiated a swap . James Turner St runs directly into Foundry Lane, so I think it likely that the street was named after him for reason of this and his willingness to swap with the council. This does not directly show which James Turner was involved, but I do think , as he had only recently been deceased, that the Baptist minister has been eliminated.

 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would agree that The Daily Telegraph is scarcely evidence, though Jennyann was not suggesting that, merely pointing out the existence of the article. At one time, in my youth, i understand that The Times and Telegraph could be relied on as "instruments of record", though this is scarcely true today.
I apologise that I omitted the date on which the name changed to James Turner St and listings of buildings also began. This was in the 1880 directory. It would be reasonable to assume that data for the directories was collected in the year before the publication date, so the name Turner st would have been given at the latest 1877. My last post would explain what I believe is the likely use of Turner, and later James Turner, for the street. It was very common to name streets after those on whose land they were built. Vyse St goes slap bang through the middle of the area shown on Pigott Smith's 1828 map as belonging to Colonel Vyse.
 

barnard

knowlegable brummie
Thanks

I would have thought had it been the Baptists Minster he would have been "James Turner Rev." not "James Turner Esq."

Still More digging required

Good Night
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
very interesting thread and comments and i tend to agree with you mike about the street being named after the land owner james turner as you say it was very common to do that...so i shall settle for that for now unless of course someone can find out differnt..

lyn
 
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Alberta

Super Moderator
Staff member
According to historian Bill Dargue the street was built between 1890-1891.
After looking at the census the thing that interested me was that all the residents in 1891 had very varied trades and came from many areas other than Birmingham( Chichester, Nottingham,Lancashire, Kidderminster etc)

I would go along with the street being called after the land owner.
 

Muddy

Brummie babby

John Young

master brummie
Throwing a Two -pennyworth in,

H M Yacht "Osborne" 1870 ?, and / or "Osborne House " I o W , built 1845 - 1851, wen it wuz a posh Street eh !
 

Radiorails

master brummie
This is a fascinating thread, with all the guesses and convolutions. and it seems that it is in its final stage. But, as there is no firm resolution yet it seems that to move on to another name viz. Osborne Street might cloud the issue. Incidentally, I am not familiar with James Turner Street.
 
B

BernardR

Guest
This is a fascinating thread, with all the guesses and convolutions. and it seems that it is in its final stage. But, as there is no firm resolution yet it seems that to move on to another name viz. Osborne Street might cloud the issue. Incidentally, I am not familiar with James Turner Street.
I agree with you on this Alan and any posts that do not fit the thread topic may be removed.
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
If the Post article is correct about Osborne St then it would only probably have been a suggestion of a name as the directories of 1876, 1878, 1879 and 1880 do not mention it. It is therefore unlikely that any nameplates were put up. As to the suggestion that it changed its name in 1882, I have already mentioned that it appeared, with properties listed, in Kellys directory published 1880 (See below). In addition, R Rusgrove applied for an off-premises alcohol licence at the licensing magistrates on 8.9.1881 at 15 James Turner St.

 

barnard

knowlegable brummie
I do feel that the key to this is the "James Turner House" that has been said to be nearby prior to the street.
 

Charlie

knows nowt
According to Chris Upton on Midlands News last night, the street is named after James Turner, Gun Manufacturer.
 

barnard

knowlegable brummie
According to Chris Upton on Midlands News last night, the street is named after James Turner, Gun Manufacturer.
I spoke to Chris Upton last Wednesday evening about the subject at our local pub "The Old Moseley Arms" he did know then.

I joked with him about it possibly being named after a "gun barrel maker" which I thought was apt as its been reported
that when WM Police raided two addresses in the street last June they found a number of bullets from one property but
no gun was found.

I have seen last nights Midlands Today on iPlayer and they do say "That James Turner was probably a local Gun Maker"

So the jury its still out as no one has yet come up with any contemporary evidence, although the "gun barrel maker"
is as I have always thought the most likely.
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
James Turner Esq. is named on the Pigott Smith 1828 and Soc. For Diffusion of Useful Knowledge map of 1839 as owner of land on the western corner of the Turnpike (Dudley road) and Icknield St. A Mr J Turner is listed in 1841 as living at Lodge Road, and the only businesses listed in 1841 naming a James Turner were Joseph & James Turner, Fisher St (off Legge St, gun barrell manufacturers, ) and a grocer in Deritend. This would all seem to point to the gun barrell manufacturer , as I doubt, at that time, that a grocer's home address would warrant a listing in a local directory . Then only the most affluent or connected were listed in the Court (or private) sections.
 

Muddy

Brummie babby
Still batting for James the button man. He was a man of independent means in 1841 before taking over the family business after his father's death. His father was a gentleman of Heath Green and an officer of the Birmingham Banking Company. His son was also a trustee of the bank. Definitely some evidence of affluence.
 

Muddy

Brummie babby
This is the record of a James Turner acquiring lands in Winson Green including Franklin Street (crossroads with James Turner St):
CR 611/486/1-6 1853-1854
These documents are held at Warwickshire County Record Office

Contents:
Conveyance of land in Franklin Street, Winson Green, Birmingham, from George Norman of Birmingham, brassfounder, to James Turner of Birmingham, gent. Abstract of title to the Mansion House and lands at Winson Green and Birmingham Heath (of which the land in Franklin Street forms part), showing the title of George Norman.
 

Muddy

Brummie babby
In other legal documents in the set with the land purchase are references to "Susan Emily" and "Ann Marie" - the names of James the button man's daughter and wife and daughter.
 
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