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Thanks Lyn. That would seem to rule her out then, and it's Mary Ann Smith after all.
Perhaps that strengthens the case for there being only one Isaiah.
One Isaiah than the other.......OK. I'll get my coat.
I have found a birth of a Isaiah Baker born Birmingham 1839 Vol. XV1 Page 303 Q3 and a death in 1889 buried in Witton Cemetery Vol. 6d Page 192 . I don't know if these are yours. I found them on Findmypast.
Also young Mary Ann Baker married at St. Stephens Birmingham 10/6/1889 age 21 yrs. Father Isaiah Baker, so if they are the one and the same it seems that Isaiah died a month after seeing his daughter wed.
I also found 2 baptisms Albert Henry Baker b. 20th April 1866 baptised 20th May 1866 St George Birmingham. FHL Film No. 588400
Alice Baker b. 31st. May 1868 baptised 21 June 1868 St. George Birmingham FHL No.588400.
I hope these are a help to you ................... if not I apologise
Many thanks for your input rowan. Albert Henry and Alice were certainly his children. An unhappy start to married life for young Mary Ann, but at least Isaiah seems to have made the wedding.
To make things even more confusing, I have now come across another potential spouse for Isaiah by the name of Sandall.
There seems to be another Isaiah Baker born a couple of years earlier in the Stourbridge area, and another one born a couple of years later in the Dudley area, so with West Bromwich somewhere in the middle of it all, the West Bromwich marriages would favour all Isaiahs equally.
What a riddle this all is
Thank you Alberta.
I have been really blitzing this puzzle today, and I mean ALL day.
After establishing that there were four different families that held an Isaiah born at that time, I set about trying to establish which of these contained my Isaiah.
Resorting to the old fashioned medium of pen and paper, I entered the census details into the four separate columns, and it soon became clear that three of the four families could be eliminated.
The eureka moment occurred when I saw that three out of the four families had their Isaiah present in the 1861 census, and my Isaiah, was lodging elsewhere as we know.
The one family left are missing from the 1861 census altogether as far as I can see, which is strange, but it leaves us now at the place where my Isaiah was either born in 1837 at Kingswinford, and had parents called Isaiah and Tabitha, where he is seen on the 1841 and 1851 censuses, OR, he was the one recorded as born in Birmingham in 1939, and is the child pauper seen in the 1951 census.
As regards his marriage. it now looks like a toss up between Smith or Sandall.
There we are.....Clear as mud.
as you say uncle albert clear as mud lol...i am still sticking to the one on the 51 census child pauper district of st stephens born ireland as its too much of a coinsidence for me that there is another isaiah baker age fits on the 61 lodger buckingham st again district st stephens which as i said earlier was only a stones throw away from the childrens poor home in asylum road..i think that from the 61 onwards he classed himself as born birmingham..mind you i could be wrong
I certainly wouldn't argue with that Lyn. My money is on him too at this stage, but it's still a teaser.
At least he could give me a break by having Sandall rather than Smith as a spouse. I'm on that one now.
well if nothing else it keeps us out of trouble just another thing to think about..re him being born in ireland...the potato famine in ireland was from 1845 to 1852..my guess is his family came here to escape that..if you look at the 51 theres a whole list of children in the poor house from ireland
I did notice the long list of poor mites. Of course your observation about the potato famine and subsequent mass exodus from Ireland fits the bill perfectly time wise, and is another good shout.
Perhaps my next move might be to order the two marriage certificates
which 2 marr certs are you thinking of getting...i was thinking where were his parents on the 51 so i just put in the surname of baker born ireland in the hopes that maybe there was a married couple in the workhouse of the right age but no luck as yet...
I was thinking of Mary Ann Sandall and Mary Ann Smith.
If the Isaiah on one of them has a father that I have eliminated then I can rule her out?
At this stage I haven't been able to find a separate record to order that says he married either of them. I can only see references to him marrying one or the other of them. I've been on the free bmd site and they're all on the same page.
As an aside; there is still a birth in Birmingham in 1839, with no apparent sight of him after that. If the birth was registered in Brum it seems unlikely that it's him who ended up in the pauper asylum.
Just had another blitz, and recorded deaths have narrowed it down a little more.
The one registered born in Brum is no longer in the picture. There were three deaths and he had to have been one of them. My Isaiah is definitely either the pauper or the son of Isaiah and Tabitha.
The wedding certificate is imperative now I think, but not sure how to go about it.
I've ordered them before from the GRO but only when I knew the names of both parties. There is no facility to search any marriage indexes on the GRO site, only births and deaths.
I think I'm blown out for the day now. Back on the case tomorrow.
morning albert..you could just order the mary ann smith marriage cert to start with...west brom 1863 july quarter ref 6b 772 if you put down she married an isaiah baker and she didnt then you get a refund...i think thats how it works..
i would imagine that you have noticed another coinsidence that on the 71 where isaiah and mary ann baker have an emily smith living with them that they also have a daughter named emily born 1864...just a thought as i could well be barking up the proverbial wrong tree
Just a thought Albert but I am presuming that Isaiah is an ancestor of another more recent Baker in your tree whose ancestors you are seeking.
Can we help you to go backwards with your ancestor until we get to your Isaiahs children whose mothers name will be on their birth certificates
Morning all. I think I needed that little nap.
Yet another good shout with Emily, Liz. I hadn't made that connection either. I'm going to sort out the Wedding certificate today, so I will of course post the results when I get them.
To answer your question Alberta;
Isaiah's daughter Alice married Henry Plumb in 1888, who in turn produced Harry Plumb, who was my dad's dad. I.E. Isaiah was my great great grandfather. I've sailed past my great great grandparents on every other branch of my tree, up to nine generations on one or two of them, so when you look at my tree Isaiah and Mary Ann are glaringly the most recent "blockage".
I have to start back on my stint of four 12 hour nightshifts tonight, so please understand if my responses are a little delayed, but I will be looking in when I can, and will be doing my best to keep up.
Thanks again to everyone for your help.
Of course! How stupid of me to have overlooked Alice's birth certificate.
I'll order the birth certificate first, and find the spouse that way. I'll know for sure which wedding certificate to order then.
Time to place your bets. My money is on Smith, based purely on sod's law.
Many thanks again everyone. I feel on the brink of a breakthrough at last.