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Hybrid & electric cars

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izzy eckerslike

izzy eckerslike

master brummie
Have any of you gone all electric or are driving a hybrid? I've been driving a Prius for over 10 years, a 2nd hand Gen 2 and now a Gen 4 I had from new.
It's a lot more powerful than the Gen 2 and also far more economical. A 1.8 engine boosted by an electric motor coupled to a seamless sun & planet gearbox give very powerful acceleration regardless of Prius milk float jokes.
I can easily get over 80mpg on a long trip but less on the return. It's all to do with the lie of the land, if you start off at the top of a long shallow hill then you might get 120mpg going down but 60-70 coming back up.
Some of the recent adverts for hybrid vehicles ( not plug in) say that you will be in electric mode 50% of the time, that's very misleading, what it should say is the engine will be off 50% of your trip which more or less what happens. You take your foot off the accelerator and the engine instantly stops so you can coast up to junctions, islands and along slight downward inclines which also adds charge to the battery. The engine continues turning but not firing in the cylinders so when it turns back on it's seamless.
 
Izzy, we are currently looking at another car. As you know driving distances in the US are considerable. We have ruled out the full electric at this time because the infrastructure is not in-place to support and where there are charging stations they are not enough. Also we keep our cars for 10 or 12 years or more. The battery replacement and disposal costs are very high.
From what I have seen the hybrid or smaller(relatively) displacement turbo charged engine is the way to go given the type of driving and market we are in. Currently we have two cars with the same V6 displacement engines 8 years a part, the newer car gets 20+% better mileage on the same driving.
I think you are on the right track!
 
izzy eckerslike said:
Have any of you gone all electric or are driving a hybrid? I've been driving a Prius for over 10 years, a 2nd hand Gen 2 and now a Gen 4 I had from new.
It's a lot more powerful than the Gen 2 and also far more economical. A 1.8 engine boosted by an electric motor coupled to a seamless sun & planet gearbox give very powerful acceleration regardless of Prius milk float jokes.
I can easily get over 80mpg on a long trip but less on the return. It's all to do with the lie of the land, if you start off at the top of a long shallow hill then you might get 120mpg going down but 60-70 coming back up.
Some of the recent adverts for hybrid vehicles ( not plug in) say that you will be in electric mode 50% of the time, that's very misleading, what it should say is the engine will be off 50% of your trip which more or less what happens. You take your foot off the accelerator and the engine instantly stops so you can coast up to junctions, islands and along slight downward inclines which also adds charge to the battery. The engine continues turning but not firing in the cylinders so when it turns back on it's seamless.
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I am on my second Nissan Leaf (100% electric). I will be exchanging my present Leaf for my third 'all electric' vehicle in March 2022.
Would I replace it with a petrol/diesel engine vehicle? NO.
I wouldn't say that 100% electric vehicles are going to be the saviour of the world as we keep being told, but they do have their place in the transport system.
I think one of the main factors that stops people buying an electric vehicle is the perceived lack of charging points.
There are almost 20,000 electric vehicle charging points in the U.K to date.
When you own an all electric vehicle the thing most people find difficult is planning their journey between charging points plus having an alternative charging point if the one you visit is out of order or being used.
Cost of running is dirt cheap (I know they are expensive when new).
I pay 15p per kw/h at home, this is my most expensive day time rate. Driven carefully I achieve 4miles per kw. This works out at about £1.50 per 40 miles of travel. A petrol engine vehicle giving you 40 mpg would cost £6.00 approx.
 
Bob Johnson said:
I pay 15p per kw/h at home, this is my most expensive day time rate. Driven carefully I achieve 4miles per kw. This works out at about £1.50 per 40 miles of travel. A petrol engine vehicle giving you 40 mpg would cost £6.00 approx.
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The overall mpg on my Prius is 67.2 over 18,000 miles. short trips, particularly in winter account for lower mpg. I can drive 12 miles to Stratford and it will show around 85mpg, coming back it will be about 73, once again it's the lie of the land.
How does your Nissan keep you warm in winter and how much does it tank the battery when you are driving with lights & wipers going plus the heater?
 
izzy eckerslike said:
The overall mpg on my Prius is 67.2 over 18,000 miles. short trips, particularly in winter account for lower mpg. I can drive 12 miles to Stratford and it will show around 85mpg, coming back it will be about 73, once again it's the lie of the land.
How does your Nissan keep you warm in winter and how much does it tank the battery when you are driving with lights & wipers going plus the heater?
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The Leaf has heated seats and steering wheel plus the usual cabin heater. The car/cabin heater works almost as soon as the ignition is turned on. The heater is a refrigerator in reverse ( a heat pump).
If it is freezing cold, with the heater and lights on I would loose about 20% of battery range, this would still give a range of 100 miles approx.
 
Bob Johnson said:
The Leaf has heated seats and steering wheel plus the usual cabin heater. The car/cabin heater works almost as soon as the ignition is turned on. The heater is a refrigerator in reverse ( a heat pump).
If it is freezing cold, with the heater and lights on I would loose about 20% of battery range, this would still give a range of 100 miles approx.
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Bob, the new Leaf (US version) has an option for a 62kwh battery vs 40 standard. This gives approximately 226 miles so with you weather discount you should be at 180 miles which is quite good!
 
Bob Johnson said:
I pay 15p per kw/h at home, this is my most expensive day time rate. Driven carefully I achieve 4miles per kw. This works out at about £1.50 per 40 miles of travel. A petrol engine vehicle giving you 40 mpg would cost £6.00 approx.
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If electricity was charged the same way as petrol you would be paying about 34.8p per kWh! If 'everyone' goes electric will that be what will happen?
 
We have our second KIA Niro, 4. It’s a joy to drive without the anxiety of an all electric, just this weekend achieved over 60mpg, with the air con on, and the lights. No worries if we have enough power to complete the journey. Or if the charging points will work when up you get there. Hybrid is the answer until we get Hydrogen fed internal combustion engines.
Kia build quality is outstanding and backed by the 7 year warranty. We would not hesitate to buy another.
 
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Chunky AC said:
We have a KIA Niro, 4. It’s a joy to drive without the anxiety of an all electric, just this weekend achieved over 60mpg, with the air con on, and the lights. No worries if we have enough power to complete the journey. Or if the charging points will work when up you get there. Hybrid is the answer until we get Hydrogen fed internal combustion engines.
Kia build quality is outstanding and backed by the 7 year warranty. We would not hesitate to buy another.
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Yes, the green hydrogen is very good already powering locomotives in Austria and growing quickly. Going to be awhile for passenger cars although expect something from Kia/Hyundai and a few others early
 
When I ordered my Prius I chose the 15" wheels, I'm not interested in how prettier the car looks on 17" low profile tyres.
It makes a lot of difference to the mpg, could be as much as 10mpg and also mine (2016) is still registered as 70g/km and was London congestion charge exempt but not now apparently as they keep moving the goalposts. 17" wheels are currently 82g/km

In 2018 Toyota raised the 15" to 78g/km. It says 15" wheels and 70g/km on my cars documents, you cannot legally change the wheels size without notifying the DVLA because of the difference in C02 levels
 
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There are a series of videos online for anyone interested in EV under the title 'Fully Charged.' run by the robot from 'Red Dwarf'. ;) Well worth following.
 
Chunky AC said:
We have our second KIA Niro, 4. It’s a joy to drive without the anxiety of an all electric, just this weekend achieved over 60mpg, with the air con on, and the lights. No worries if we have enough power to complete the journey. Or if the charging points will work when up you get there. Hybrid is the answer until we get Hydrogen fed internal combustion engines.
Kia build quality is outstanding and backed by the 7 year warranty. We would not hesitate to buy another.
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What are averaging for mpg, I just looked at a review for your car and it says 'Officially, you can travel for up to three miles on electric power alone, at speeds of up to 70mph' is that correct or is it yet another example of misleading reviews?

I can drive for e.g along a particular section of the M42 for about 3 miles at 60-70mph with the engine off and the EV green light on but the battery is not really pulling the car but just assisting freewheeling due to the level or slight downhill road.
Any attempt to stay in EV mode at those speeds on a slight incline upwards and it will fire up the engine and I'm guessing most hybrids do the same thing.
I never ever press the EV button because it beeps and cuts off at around 35mph. But I can drive it with the engine off with the electric motor actually powering the vehicle at any speed up to 70mph for a mile or so as long as it's not uphill
 
Since I now do only a small annual mileage the cost of my motoring is ruled by the depreciation of the car. My current diesel vehicle, based upon its list price and its present value according to “we buy any car” has depreciated by £25,000 in the 3 years I have had it. As I have recently clocked up 10,000 miles the depreciation charge is £2.50 per mile. Were I to change the car now, for an electric car of similar make and specification, (sun roof, electric seats, tinted glass etc etc) I would be parting with another £35,000. If you can see any logic in my going electric please let me know.

Incidentally, I consider my contribution to the health of the planet to be the reduction in my annual mileage to about one eighth of what I used to do.
 
Johnfromstaffs said:
Since I now do only a small annual mileage the cost of my motoring is ruled by the depreciation of the car. My current diesel vehicle, based upon its list price and its present value according to “we buy any car” has depreciated by £25,000 in the 3 years I have had it. As I have recently clocked up 10,000 miles the depreciation charge is £2.50 per mile. Were I to change the car now, for an electric car of similar make and specification, (sun roof, electric seats, tinted glass etc etc) I would be parting with another £35,000. If you can see any logic in my going electric please let me know.

Incidentally, I consider my contribution to the health of the planet to be the reduction in my annual mileage to about one eighth of what I used to do.
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Totally agree! In our case the car we are looking to change is almost 13 years old with 148,000 mile (not that many). Our problem is that what was once a very reliable car is no longer!
 
izzy eckerslike said:
What are averaging for mpg, I just looked at a review for your car and it says 'Officially, you can travel for up to three miles on electric power alone, at speeds of up to 70mph' is that correct or is it yet another example of misleading reviews?

I can drive for e.g along a particular section of the M42 for about 3 miles at 60-70mph with the engine off and the EV green light on but the battery is not really pulling the car but just assisting freewheeling due to the level or slight downhill road.
Any attempt to stay in EV mode at those speeds on a slight incline upwards and it will fire up the engine and I'm guessing most hybrids do the same thing.
I never ever press the EV button because it beeps and cuts off at around 35mph. But I can drive it with the engine off with the electric motor actually powering the vehicle at any speed up to 70mph for a mile or so as long as it's not uphill
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Hello Vic,
Driving in electric mode or in petrol mode is not an option as I see it. The electric power is there as a boost to assist the petrol engine. It is possible to be driving on flat roads where the petrol engine is not used with all of the power coming from electric motor. But start to climb any hills and. The petrol engine cuts in to take over. Pulling away from a standing start the power comes from the electric motor thereby reducing the high revs required from the petrol engine. All of this happens automatically without any driver intervention. The power from the electric motor is certainly noticeable especially if you put your foot down. This is all in the standard drive mode. In sports mode the acceleration is outstanding. My on board computer tells me my driving style is 73% economical, 25% normal and 2% sports. Hence the 60mpg. last weekend. AC.
 
I've been in the motor trade all my life and never bought a new car for myself, that depreciation hits as soon as you roll out of the showroom. I'm driving a 2.0 Litre Citroen diesel estate now that I found in a field missing its automatic gearbox, bought it for £150, bought a s/h box for £400 and fitted it, had it now for nearly five years.
 
In the case of Richard’s 148k miler, I see the options open to him as limited only to whatever style car he thinks is best for himself. My choice of car is limited only by a liking for a nice new car every so often, and the application of a certain amount of logic which is leading me to the conclusion that my present car will be kept for a good while yet.
 
Eric Gibson said:
I've been in the motor trade all my life and never bought a new car for myself, that depreciation hits as soon as you roll out of the showroom. I'm driving a 2.0 Litre Citroen diesel estate now that I found in a field missing its automatic gearbox, bought it for £150, bought a s/h box for £400 and fitted it, had it now for nearly five years.
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I had a very early Citroen BX, finished up having three in total, very comfortable ride with the hydro suspension, all three I had for three years or more and all did more than 130K miles in each of them. Never had a problem with any of them. So reliable despite their reputation.
 
Eric Gibson wrote quite wonderfully about how he was able to save money buying old cars and fettling them back to use. Sadly I am totally mechanically incompetent and seem to successfully find every rogue in the motor trade. Every repair or adjustment has ended up cosying me the proverbial arm and a leg. I learnt, sadly, that the only way I could ever afford to motor was to lease a new car and replace it every other year.
 
Even main dealers can't be trusted, in my case with both of my Prius. With my first one 2006 reg I had a service contract but noticed they had overfilled the oil way above the top mark of the dipstick. Rather than go back I used a suction tube to draw it up the dipstick tube. A year later I took the car back and said please don't overfill the oil. That's impossible said the service bloke, it's an exact setting every time. So I asked how come it was way above then and he fetched the rather aggressive service manager who tried to lay down the rules etc.
So we went for a walk came back and the car was ready and waiting, I went straight away and lifted the bonnet and there is the oil, way above the top mark. out they all come,
full of excuses, it's not on level ground, it's oil on the dipstick but not the actual level etc. They took it back in the workshop and the young mechanic came and said they drained 3/4 of a litre out to get it to the top mark and was full of apologies. The manager never showed his face. I contacted the owner of the dealership, told him about the aggressive manager etc and he looked into it. He contacted me a few days later and said well it was only a thimbleful overfilled, they had lied and I cancelled the service contract and the possibility of a new vehicle. They had been overfilling everyone's Prius. He offered me two years free servicing if I stayed with them, six months later the business changed hands.
 
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izzy eckerslike said:
Even main dealers can't be trusted, in my case with both of my Prius. With my first one 2006 reg I had a service contract but noticed they had overfilled the oil way above the top mark of the dipstick. Rather than go back I used a suction tube to draw it up the dipstick tube. A year later I took the car back and said please don't overfill the oil. That's impossible said the service bloke, it's an exact setting every time. So I asked how come it was way above then and he fetched the rather aggressive service manager who tried to lay down the rules etc.
So we went for a walk came back and the car was ready and waiting, I went straight away and lifted the bonnet and there is the oil, way above the top mark. out they all come,
full of excuses, it's not on level ground, it's oil on the dipstick but not the actual level etc. They took it back in the workshop and the young mechanic came and said they drained 3/4 of a litre out and was full of apologies. The manager never showed his face. I contacted the owner of the dealership, told him about the aggressive manager etc and he looked into it. He contacted me a few days later and said well it was only a thimbleful overfilled, they had lied and I cancelled the service contract and the possibility of a new vehicle. They had been overfilling everyone's Prius. He offered me two years free servicing if I stayed with them, six months later the business changed hands.
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Izzy, the second that happened take it back as you did to get it rectified your next step should have been Toyota. Many times the owners don’t know or care but Toyota does.
I have worked with manufacturers for over 40 years including Toyota, Honda, Ford, BMW, Mercedes Volvo and VW et al and they do not like to hear things like that.
 
I have a vw up! bluemotion, it charges the battery when you put the brakes on using Kinetic energy and when you brake the engine revs drop to save fuel and cut emissions.:grinning:
 
They have tried a couple of wheezes on my car to save fuel, firstly a nine speed gearbox with ninth being geared to 46mph per 1000rpm, and secondly an eco setting for the transmission which starts in second and free wheels if you take your foot off the accelerator pedal. If you are approaching a queue or lights or whatever it engages a gear at about 20mph until you stop. The problem is that with local journeys it never uses the high gears, so the advantage seems wasted. I did a thirty mile round trip on side roads last week, it never got above 7th.
 
Richarddye said:
Izzy, the second that happened take it back as you did to get it rectified your next step should have been Toyota. Many times the owners don’t know or care but Toyota does.
I have worked with manufacturers for over 40 years including Toyota, Honda, Ford, BMW, Mercedes Volvo and VW et al and they do not like to hear things like that.
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My second Prius had a similar problem regarding oil :
A Prius which I bought new from a different dealership and after it's first service I noticed my regular trips showed an 8 -10 mpg drop.
Looking on the Prius forums I see similar complaints, it's the wrong grade of oil used , should be 0w20 synthetic, a rather thin oil very important in hybrids to reduce drag. Toyota state that it's the correct oil to use but should another oil be used instead it should be changed asap for the correct grade. Also do not overfill, it came from Japan 3/4 full but once again they fill it right up to the top mark.

Back I go to Toyota, it's impossible to use the wrong oil says the service manager along with a load of waffle, apparently they have a drum of oil with a hose that will only reach a certain car lift they keep specially for hybrids. He offers to redo it while I wait, even pay for it out of his own pocket, but I'm not allowed to watch, health & safety etc.

So going home I see the same big drop. I send for Toyota's own brand of 0W20, crawl under the car and drain the oil. Then I get a small plastic cup off an aerosol, drill a small hole and perform a viscosity check. Timing how long a measured amount takes to drain from the cup. Toyota's correct grade was 55 seconds. the rubbish they put in mine, 1 minute and 35 seconds. I contact the general manager and get the expected reply, he checked in the workshop, they did put the right oil in etc. etc. I've seen on Prius forums where someone challenged them over oil used and discovered they don't actually have any 0W20 but claim it's on order. Needless to say I refilled with the Toyota oil and mpg was restored.
I cancelled the service contract, I'll never take another one as you don't get an invoice showing what they used so they can cut corners and you can't prove anything as the just deny it.
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izzy eckerslike said:
My second Prius had a similar problem regarding oil :
A Prius which I bought new from a different dealership and after it's first service I noticed my regular trips showed an 8 -10 mpg drop.
Looking on the Prius forums I see similar complaints, it's the wrong grade of oil used , should be 0w20 synthetic, a rather thin oil very important in hybrids to reduce drag. Toyota state that it's the correct oil to use but should another oil be used instead it should be changed asap for the correct grade. Also do not overfill, it came from Japan 3/4 full but once again they fill it right up to the top mark.

Back I go to Toyota, it's impossible to use the wrong oil says the service manager along with a load of waffle, apparently they have a drum of oil with a hose that will only reach a certain car lift they keep specially for hybrids. He offers to redo it while I wait, even pay for it out of his own pocket, but I'm not allowed to watch, health & safety etc.

So going home I see the same big drop. I send for Toyota's own brand of 0W20, crawl under the car and drain the oil. Then I get a small plastic cup off an aerosol, drill a small hole and preform a viscosity check. Timing how long a measured amount takes to drain from the cup. Toyota's correct grade was 55 seconds. the rubbish they put in mine, 1 minute and 35 seconds. I contact the general manager and get the expected reply, he checked in the workshop, they did put the right oil in etc. etc. I've seen on Prius forums where someone challenged them over oil used and discovered they don't actually have any 0W20 but it's on order.
I cancelled the service contract, I'll never take another one as you don't get an invoice showing what they used so they can cut corners and you can't prove anything as the just deny it.
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Didn’t realize your car would be that sensitive viscosity, Once operating temperature is reached the viscosity impact should be minimal. In the IS most good oils are 50% synthetic also a detailed invoice is required with any service. Also any parts that are changed or replaced are given to you to take if you want.
I think your dealer gave you what we call built oil or low quality (cost), that’s how they make extra money.
I would go to another establishment for an oil change where you can be sure, but I would complain to Toyota (factory) directly.
 
Just getting back to matters Brummie for a moment! My first car was an Austin A30. New, out of the factory not more than a mile from where I was living. That used to do something approaching 40 miles to the gallon on petrol that was much more crudely refined than today and presumably as it was less interfered with used less of our precious resources. My current all singing, all dancing Toyota
 
daithelife said:
Just getting back to matters Brummie for a moment! My first car was an Austin A30. New, out of the factory not more than a mile from where I was living. That used to do something approaching 40 miles to the gallon on petrol that was much more crudely refined than today and presumably as it was less interfered with used less of our precious resources. My current all singing, all dancing Toyota
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Your A30 had nothing in the way of emissions controls on it which has impacted fuel mileage over the years and only recently or relatively so getting back to where the emissions impact is being minimized!
 
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