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HS2 Archaeology

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
ha ha viv...yes i have bricks from quite a few places now..some folk collect pub table mats..i have to go for bricks:D:D:D
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
In anticipation of the next episode, do we have any ideas about the reason for some of the human remains showing characteristics of post-mortems, amputations etc ? Research ? Where, a hospital ? Viv.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
In anticipation of the next episode, do we have any ideas about the reason for some of the human remains showing characteristics of post-mortems, amputations etc ? Research ? Where, a hospital ? Viv.
as i understood it viv a lot was due to bodies being dug up and used for medical science at teaching hospitals...could be other reasons though
 

Pedrocut

Master Barmmie
I can't find any other reference to the "lavender barge" but I would have no problem with the vessel being called a barge.

It seems that around 1878 the lavender barges were causing a bit a stink in Solihull.

388B2353-68B6-40FC-9047-CCDEE460B0F4.jpeg95D1B689-0C60-4DFD-9AD7-C41ACD38E88F.jpeg
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
I can't find any other reference to the "lavender barge" but I would have no problem with the vessel being called a barge.

It seems that around 1878 the lavender barges were causing a bit a stink in Solihull.

View attachment 148452View attachment 148454
I have heard it said, at a talk at the Gunmakers,, that Solihull got its name originally from being the place to deposit night soil (Soilihull), it being built on the stuff. !
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
The reference to the lack of guilds/gilds in Brum in the 1800s, suggested that it attracted ambitious skilled newcomers to the area, an example quoted being the Jewish gentleman who made clock hands. Always thought Brum was famous for its guilds. Maybe they just meant with reference to that particular trade - clockmakers ?
Viv
I have seen this stated in a number of places. The suggestion began with William Hutton, who argued that the guilds and charters of the older boroughs restricted entry into many professions (perhaps a more recent comparison might be that in the late 20th century it was far easier to get a job at Longbridge if one of your family worked there). Birmingham had no such restrictions, and so anyone could come there and work at their trade. Also , because it was a nonconformist city , nonconformists could more easily flourish. Probably this was an influence, but not such a governing factor as Hutton believed
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
It made me very sad when I watched the Fox and Grapes coming down. We used to park on the car park just past the pub on a Saturday and walk down the cobbles to get to Latifs and the markets. At least the programme said that the pub had been surveyed by the archeologists. Do you think they will be making their findings of all our history available for the public?
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
Having watched last nights episode can anyone tell me if Park Street cemetery was connected in any way to
St Bartholmews Church Cemetery.

William.
Morning William,

St Bartholemew's church was built to house the overflow of worshippers from St Martin's and was originally a chapel of ease for the larger church. Later St Bartholemew's parish was created out of St Martin's. It had it's own burial ground and the church wasn't demolished until 1927. Not sure when burials there stopped but it depends on where you lived/died as to where you were buried. Nice write up on the church can be found here but I expect you've discovered this already.

 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
not sure pen...i was under the impression that proper archaeological dig was to happen around the area of the fox and grapes including where the old meeting house was in freeman st but i am not sure if this was done...i will get in touch with mike hodder as he may have an update..having said that pen i wonder if it will be mentioned on tonights programme...looking forward to that

lyn
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
Thanks Lyn. I'm sure there would have been lots of interest especially from members of the forum but the previous disturbances of the area might have wrecked it. They weren't as careful of our heritage in past times as they are today. Looking forward to the programme tonight. The thing that I noticed about this series is that it is presented by women and that the Head Archaeologists in Birmingham and London are women too. Nice to see but no reflection on the capabilities of their male colleagues.
 

Richarddye

master brummie
Just caught up with the programme. For me it shows quite a few interesting points about Park Street (episode 2). The first was the burial of ceramic plates and cups. Hopefully all will be revealed about what they represent in these burials. Also seemingly few of the coffins have breast plates (compared with the London burials - seems odd given the predominance of metal working in Brum). But according to the programme all the records of Park Street are held at the Library of Birmingham.

There’s irony in the fact that the poorer burials in the northern part of the cemetery are better preserved, whereas those in the southern area are less well preserved, due to the more acid, sandy soil.

The reference to the lack of guilds/gilds in Brum in the 1800s, suggested that it attracted ambitious skilled newcomers to the area, an example quoted being the Jewish gentleman who made clock hands. Always thought Brum was famous for its guilds. Maybe they just meant with reference to that particular trade - clockmakers ?

Never knew gravestone were called ‘ledgers’ !

At about 20 mins (I think) into the programme there’s footage of the demolition of the Fox and Grapes pub.

Lots to whet the appetite here. Just wish it would continue delving into the lives of many more buried souls at Park Street.

Viv.
Viv, interesting comments regarding guilds...............they were established to protect the skilled workers (most trades) against shoddy workmanship. At least originally works had to be skilled at their trade. the fact that there were a shortage (surprise to me) allowed others to come in.
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
Morning William,

St Bartholemew's church ........

.Not sure when burials there stopped but it depends on where you lived/died as to where you were buried. Nice write up on the church can be found here but I expect you've discovered this already.

The remains from St Bartholomew’s graveyard were removed in 1954. They would have been reinterred at various burial grounds. Some remains turned up at Hockley. If families didn’t make their wishes known, the Corporation seems to have decided to reinter them in appropriate places. See post #9 here https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/for...nterments-at-birmingham-burial-grounds.52108/

Viv..
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Sands Cox Medical School was on the site of Rackhams/House of Fraser (see post #45 EllBrowns photo in this thread https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/rackhams-store.32816/page-3). Found the research into the reason for items placed into the skulls of those dissected quite fascinating although thought the explanation of a broken wine glass and marmalade jar placed in skulls seemed a bit weak to me.

An interesting account of “slogging” by Carl Chinn. Sounds brutal and gave us a graphic picture of the darker side of the area.

Hadn’t realised the fullest extent of damage done to Park Street buildings as a result of the Murphy Riots, almost to the point of wholesale destruction (according to the programme).

Viv.
 
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Pedrocut

Master Barmmie
The programme suggests that the Anatomical demonstrations advert from 1825 shows that Sands Cox was able to obtain bodies seven years before the Anatomy Act. His father was for 40 yrs surgeon to the Workhouse Infirmary, so Sands Cox may have had access to the bodies of unclaimed members of the Poor.

The Poor should get as much recognition as Sands Cox.
 

Pedrocut

Master Barmmie
Respect to our Carl Chinn.

"Poverty widespread in Victorian Britain... paradox of the wealthiest Nation in the World with so much poverty...badly-built housing, crammed into tightly-packed areas...railways built, poorer people's houses knocked down, overcrowding goes up... the problems of the poor in the late 1800s are actually worsening...”
 
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