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Help please with RAF badges
- Thread starter Vivienne14
- Start date
Sorry had pressed 'post reply' before attaching !
Eric Gibson
master brummie
I don't know what their sleeve patches are but they've obviously pulled them into view for the photo so must be proud of them.
Radiorails
master brummie
I presume the photo is of allied airmen, possibly American or Canadian hence the upper sleeve detail.
The pilot, denoted by his 'wings' above his medals, on the left has vertical rank markings on his left sleeve. The other chap is an observer, navigator or whatever his wings portray. I did not notice a rank marking here.
The pilot, denoted by his 'wings' above his medals, on the left has vertical rank markings on his left sleeve. The other chap is an observer, navigator or whatever his wings portray. I did not notice a rank marking here.
The person on the right was my dad and the person on the left was his senior officer. My dad was a flight engineer in the RAF. During WW2 they flew over France dropping agents and supplies for the French underground I was told this photo was taken in Scotland while on training, which I think was just after the war had ended.
I was also told that he worked with a lot of Polish and European officers, so wondered if the badges had something to do with that work.
I was also told that he worked with a lot of Polish and European officers, so wondered if the badges had something to do with that work.
Wow, thank you Dinger. A long time mystery solved !
And thanks all.
And thanks all.
It had its consequences Lyn - which people didn't tend to talk about. Along with other life's challenges - losing a father and sister when he was age 11 - then losing friends in the RAF probably impacted enormously on him. I only knew him until I was about 20, then we had no contact.
War service undoubtedly changed people, sometimes for the worse. My mum claimed he changed after the war because he didn't want to leave the RAF after being medically retired (because of a flying accident in training), around the time of the photo. And she was convinced his anti- interrogation training made him the way he was. Whether that's true I don't know, but their marriage fell apart. It's really only since talking to relations that I got to understand all this as I found out more about him. Like most ex-military, he didn't talk about his war experiences.
War service undoubtedly changed people, sometimes for the worse. My mum claimed he changed after the war because he didn't want to leave the RAF after being medically retired (because of a flying accident in training), around the time of the photo. And she was convinced his anti- interrogation training made him the way he was. Whether that's true I don't know, but their marriage fell apart. It's really only since talking to relations that I got to understand all this as I found out more about him. Like most ex-military, he didn't talk about his war experiences.
Radiorails
master brummie
Regular service in the RAF and afterwards in the Fire Service certainly changed me. Whether is was for the better or the worse only others can answer. 
yes viv both wars changed people of that there is no doubt so many were mentally scared for life and as we all know back then there was not the help and support that serving veterans have today and even with todays help for many it never makes things right..some men either sent back their medals or simply disposed of them some because they felt they did not deserve them because they were just doing their duty but most because they just did not want to be reminded of the terrible sights and sounds of war..not to mention the mental stress..it is sad that family life did not turn out good for your family however your dad did do his bit and must be applauded for that...
lyn
A bit of background on those badges. Before WW2 the RAF had officer pilots who would also serve as Navigators. The Air Gunners, bomb-aimers and wireless operators carried in aircraft would be volunteers from "ground trades" who would only do rudimentary short courses in their flying duties and only get paid extra when they actually flew. Their rank would be determined by their service in their ground trades, so a lot of them would be lowly airmen or corporals with a sprinkling of Sgts and a few Warrant Officers. As war approached they started to train some lower ranks as navigators to free up some of the pilots from having to fly as navigators. These "other-ranks" navigators were called "observers" at first. It was not unusual for some of these volunteers to have done multiple courses, so they could be qualified to do multiple roles (ie be both a gunner and a wireless operator ). When the war started it quickly became obvious this whole system was a mess. - To expect lowly airmen to risk their lives for a pittance of extra pay and still be expected to do their full ground trade as well was just not on. - So they promoted them all to Sgts and made their aircrew role their full-time job. This obviously caused a bit of resentment amongst the older full-time groundcrew NCOs who would find themselves sharing their mess with young "sprogs". But this resentment turned to admiration as the air war hotted up and a growing number of the young aircrew became casualties. Also, before the war started the shortage of pilots forced the RAF to accept NCO pilots. Those who were deemed not worthy to be "officers and gentlemen" were accepted for pilot training and would pass out as Sgts. Officers and NCOs were not expected to mix socially - An officer bomber pilot going out to the pub with his NCO crew was frowned upon, as was Officer fighter pilots mixing socially with their NCO fellow pilots. Of course, as the war progressed these social divisions began to disappear, but the top brass in the RAF still viewed this breakdown in the social order with distaste.
When the war ended there were various schools of thought of how the RAF rank structure should change. Some more conservative officers wanted a return to the pre-war system of pilots being officers and all other aircrew coming from ground trades only flying when necessary. However, the increased technology and expertise required to handle the more sophisticated equipment introduced during the war made this unrealistic. Others suggested making all aircrew into officers but this was thought to be unworkable and to have cost too much in wages! The resentment of long-serving groundcrew NCOs having to share their mess with young "sprogs" straight out of training started to reappear.
The "Aircrew rank" and its associated badges were a compromise meant to solve the various issues. The badges replaced the Sgts and Flt Sgt stripes and Warrant officer badges formerly worn by aircrew. - This was supposed to be the equivalent ranks...
Aircrew Cadet - Aircrew under training.
Aircrew 4 - Corporal
Aircrew 3 - Corporal
Aircrew 2 - Sgt
Aircrew I - Flight Sgt
Master Aircrew - Warrant Officer.
You can straight away see the one huge issue this caused - Aircrew that had gone through the war with the rank of Sgt (Presumably like your Dad Viv) found themselves essentially demoted to the rank of Corporal - Although it should be stressed there was no loss of pay (also anyone who had previously lodged in a Sgts mess was allowed to keep doing so). Also, how do you address people with these ranks? - "Sir" ? (for Warrant Officers), Sgt? "Aircrew one" ??? How were people in the RAF meant to identify these ranks from badges that looked the same from a distance? - How were people from the Army and Navy meant to know what they were?
The whole thing was a mess - It quickly became very unpopular and in 1950 NCO aircrew ranks reverted to Sgt and above with the usual stripes or Warrant Officers badge. Information on the scheme is hard to come by now - I know of only one book that broaches the subject "Observers and Navigators and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF" by Wing Commander C.G. Jefford - and even in that it is glossed over in a scant 2 pages.
Which still leaves the mystery of the two vertical bars on your Dad's colleague's sleeve. - I can't find anything about them. - He is obviously an NCO pilot with pilot's wings, while your dad has the "E" wings brevet for a flight engineer. - One suggestion is that they were "Wound Stripes" - apparently worn informally by many Polish and Ex-Polish (after 1946) military who stayed on in the British Military after the war. - But that's only a suggestion.
When the war ended there were various schools of thought of how the RAF rank structure should change. Some more conservative officers wanted a return to the pre-war system of pilots being officers and all other aircrew coming from ground trades only flying when necessary. However, the increased technology and expertise required to handle the more sophisticated equipment introduced during the war made this unrealistic. Others suggested making all aircrew into officers but this was thought to be unworkable and to have cost too much in wages! The resentment of long-serving groundcrew NCOs having to share their mess with young "sprogs" straight out of training started to reappear.
The "Aircrew rank" and its associated badges were a compromise meant to solve the various issues. The badges replaced the Sgts and Flt Sgt stripes and Warrant officer badges formerly worn by aircrew. - This was supposed to be the equivalent ranks...
Aircrew Cadet - Aircrew under training.
Aircrew 4 - Corporal
Aircrew 3 - Corporal
Aircrew 2 - Sgt
Aircrew I - Flight Sgt
Master Aircrew - Warrant Officer.
You can straight away see the one huge issue this caused - Aircrew that had gone through the war with the rank of Sgt (Presumably like your Dad Viv) found themselves essentially demoted to the rank of Corporal - Although it should be stressed there was no loss of pay (also anyone who had previously lodged in a Sgts mess was allowed to keep doing so). Also, how do you address people with these ranks? - "Sir" ? (for Warrant Officers), Sgt? "Aircrew one" ??? How were people in the RAF meant to identify these ranks from badges that looked the same from a distance? - How were people from the Army and Navy meant to know what they were?
The whole thing was a mess - It quickly became very unpopular and in 1950 NCO aircrew ranks reverted to Sgt and above with the usual stripes or Warrant Officers badge. Information on the scheme is hard to come by now - I know of only one book that broaches the subject "Observers and Navigators and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF" by Wing Commander C.G. Jefford - and even in that it is glossed over in a scant 2 pages.
Which still leaves the mystery of the two vertical bars on your Dad's colleague's sleeve. - I can't find anything about them. - He is obviously an NCO pilot with pilot's wings, while your dad has the "E" wings brevet for a flight engineer. - One suggestion is that they were "Wound Stripes" - apparently worn informally by many Polish and Ex-Polish (after 1946) military who stayed on in the British Military after the war. - But that's only a suggestion.
That's interesting Dinger, many thanks. I've dug out a bit more info from my Ancestry files which may or may not throw light on the badges. In 1948, around the time of the photo, my Dad was an E2 and the senior officer to the left was a P2. They were 236 OCU at the time. Here's a record of a training accident in Scotland they were involved in from "Final Landings" (Colin Cummings) of lost aircraft that I was given.
They all survived the training accident. But my dad was medically retired after being in a dingy for a long time in a very rough North Sea with waves of up to 15 ft. The training exercise was from Kinloss and they were eventually rescued and taken to Lerwick. So maybe the badges had something to do with the OCU training they were taking ?
They all survived the training accident. But my dad was medically retired after being in a dingy for a long time in a very rough North Sea with waves of up to 15 ft. The training exercise was from Kinloss and they were eventually rescued and taken to Lerwick. So maybe the badges had something to do with the OCU training they were taking ?
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Hi Viv, The badges were standard for all NCO aircrew at that time - So not just specific to OCU (Operational Conversion Unit) training. 236 OCU specialised in training aircrew in maritime patrol, reconnaissance and anti-submarine work. The Lancaster GR3 (GR stood for "General Reconnaissance) was the anti-submarine, maritime patrol version of the famous wartime Lancaster Bomber. RAF Coastal Command had to return all its long-range Liberators to the USA after the war (that was the terms of "lease-lend" - the aircraft were only "lent" and had to be returned at the end of the war). - So Lancasters were converted to the task.
A Lancaster GR3. As the flight engineer your Dad would have sat on the right and side of the cockpit, a little below the level of the pilot. He would have monitored the engine instruments on the instrument panel and on a panel of dials on the side of the fuselage behind him. Often Flight Engineers had rudimentary pilot training so that they could help the pilot in the event of an emergency, or keep the aircraft flying straight and level to allow the rest of the crew to bale out in the event of the pilot being incapacitated. The Lancaster had only one pilot, unlike most larger American multi-engined aircraft that had co-pilots.
A Lancaster GR3. As the flight engineer your Dad would have sat on the right and side of the cockpit, a little below the level of the pilot. He would have monitored the engine instruments on the instrument panel and on a panel of dials on the side of the fuselage behind him. Often Flight Engineers had rudimentary pilot training so that they could help the pilot in the event of an emergency, or keep the aircraft flying straight and level to allow the rest of the crew to bale out in the event of the pilot being incapacitated. The Lancaster had only one pilot, unlike most larger American multi-engined aircraft that had co-pilots.
Very helpful, thanks Dinger. That really helps. My dad wouldn't have left the RAF if he hadn't been involved in the accident - it cut short his career, an ambition he'd had from very young, ultimately wanting to do the same as his uncle who was an RFC pilot in WW1. Despite that, his skills must have been in great demand in 1950s peacetime England, but it it can't have been as rewarding as his time in the RAF.
Thanks all for your help.
Thanks all for your help.
