Help needed reading birth certificate

[ARippin]

Can anyone make out what this reads on my Great Grandfathers birth cert?

I can see 'Twentysecond January 1869' and the 'Grove Lane Smethwick' but I'm struggling with the bit in between.

Possibly '12th 55 ??????'

 

[Radiorails]

It suggests:

12h 55m PM, which I read as a time of 12.55 pm. The PM is debatable as it may be AM but others may comment about it.

 

[BernardR]

It looks like '12 Hours 55 Minutes' plus something else but not sure that makes any sense.

 

[brummie nick]

Do you know if he was a twin? as they put the time of birth to establish who is the elder.

 

[ColinB]

How strange, just about 2 mins ago on Heir Hunters they had a birth certificate with a time on it certificates for multiple births will have time of birth included to indicate birth order, so perhaps your g-gf was a twin

Colin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Astoness]

12h is nothing to do with mins it would mean he was born in house no 12...not sure about the rest of the address apart from grove lane smethwick...will take a closer look but following the house number would usually be the number of the court...

lyn

 

[Phil]

It looks like 12.55 p.m. to me.

 

[Astoness]

crikey im not so sure now about 12h being the house number..it does look like 12 hrs 55 mins pm being the time of birth..i have never seen this before on a birth cert

lyn

 

[Astoness]

i have found david on the 1871 census..same address of grove lane..aged 2 no sign of a twin

lyn

 

[pollypops]

It looks like 12 h 55mins pm to me too and as I had just seen heir hunters I looked for a birth/death of a Palmer twin but couldn't find one (that's not to say there isn't one - just I can't find one)
David is on 1871 and 1881 with no other child of the same age.
Could it be that as the time of birth was within an hour of 12 midnight they recorded time to prove the date of birth?
Strange though that no one has seen this before on a cert

 

[pollypops]

I have just found a James Palmer born Jan/feb/march and died Jan/feb/March in 1869 age 0
birth and death registered Kings Norton
I think this may be David's twin???
How strange heir hunters mentioned times on birth certs this morning!

 

[brummie nick]

We Have one in our family,thats what made me ask if he was a twin

 

[ARippin]

WOW.
I'm blown away with all of your input, and if I enjoyed being on this forum before you have all taken it to a new level. Huge huge thanks.

The time I would never have guessed at (as like most of you I have never seen it on a birth cert and I assumed it was an address).
The twin line of enquiry is really great as well.
I didn't upload the whole certificate to make it more focussed and assumed no one would be interested.
However the mother is named - then after it is written '(deceased)'.
So my G G Grandmother must have died giving birth (or soon after).
I have found her death cert which I'm just about to apply for.
Before I read the input about David possibly being a twin, I assumed the time may have been recorded due to her dying.
But it now sounds very much like she died giving birth to twins.
I will confirm it once I have the certificates in my possession if anyone is interested.

Again, in case you are left in any doubt, a big thanks again to you all.

 

[pollypops]

I didn't look at the 1861 census I just quickly checked the 1871 and 1881 for another child the same age as David. If I had checked the 1861 - or bothered to check the ages of the children to Wife Emily I would have realised there must have been another wife - Mary A. How sad she perhaps lost her life giving birth and one of the twins died (iif we are right and there was a twin)
I would love to know the outcome. Thank you for sharing the information with us.

 

[BernardR]

I will confirm it once I have the certificates in my possession if anyone is interested.

Again, in case you are left in any doubt, a big thanks again to you all.

You bet we are interested much of the enjoyment is seeing where a story goes. As Polly says thanks for sharing.

 

[pollypops]

I have found the 1861 and 1851 for Joseph Palmer with his first wife Mary Ann

Not sure if Mary Ann was born Stourport or Stockport as one of the enumerators seems to have made a mistake.

1861 Grove Lane, Smethwick/Harborne/Worcestershire
Joseph Palmer – head – 37- shoe maker – b. Warwickshire (1824)
Mary A – wife – 35 – b. Stockport, Lancashire (1826)
Arthur Palmer – son- 12 – shoemaker – b. Tipton, Staffordshire (1849)
Theopholis Palmer – son- 9 – scholar – b. Dudley Port, Staffordshire (1852)
Samuel Palmer – son – 7 – scholar – b. Rounds Green, Worcestershire (1854)
Emanuel Palmer – son – 5 – scholar – b. Rounds Green, Worcestershire (1856)
Enoch Palmer - son – 3 – b. Rounds Green, Worcestershire (1858)
Emelia Palmer – daughter – 1 – b. Smethwick, Staffordshire (1860)
Jane Barber – servant – 12 – house servant – b. Ashton, Lancashire (1849) (relative of Mary Ann’s?)

1851 Canal Street, Tipton
Joseph Palmer – head – 27 – shoemaker - Journeyman – b. Henley in Arden
Maryann Palmer – wife – 25 – b Stourport, Worcestershire
(blank) Palmer – son - 2 – b. Tipton, Staffordshire (1849) – so probably Arthur on the 1861)
George Parkes –lodger – married – 23 – malster Journeyman – b. Inkberrow (1828)
Mary Ann Parker – lodger – married – 20 – b.Tipton, Staffordshire (1831)

I think this is Joseph age 16 – hopefully with his parents - William and Elizabeth
1841 Princes End, Tipton Dudley
William Palmer – 55 – not born in county (1786)
Elizabeth Palmer – 45 – b. Staffordshire (1796)
Thomas Palmer – 28 – b. Staffordshire (1813)
John Palmer – 20 - b. Staffordshire (1821)
Joseph Palmer – 16 –b. Staffordshire (1825)
Benjamin Palmer-13 - b. Staffordshire (1828)
Elizabeth Palmer – 11- b. Staffordshire (1830)
Ester Palmer – 9 - b. Staffordshire (1832)

 

[pollypops]

In 1891 the Family are in Price Street, Smethwick - but David is not with them - he would be about 22

Joseph Palmer - head - married - 67 - Shoemaker - Warwickshire
Emile Palmer - wife - 56 - b. Tipton
Emanuel Palmer - 36 - labourer - b. Oldbury
Joseph Palmer - 15 - apprentice - b. Smethwick

There is an 1890 army record for a David Palmer - born 1871, Smethwick, shoemaker, joining the Kings Royal Rifle Corps - that may be him and he lied about his age??

I also found this article in The Birmingham Daily Post about a David Palmer, age 23, Shoemaker, Price Street, Smethwick, stealing a bicycle
(I did ask ARippin before putting this on the forum)
Article dated - Friday 25th March 1892

 

[ARippin]

I have found the 1861 and 1851 for Joseph Palmer with his first wife Mary Ann

Not sure if Mary Ann was born Stourport or Stockport as one of the enumerators seems to have made a mistake.

1861 Grove Lane, Smethwick/Harborne/Worcestershire
Joseph Palmer – head – 37- shoe maker – b. Warwickshire (1824)
Mary A – wife – 35 – b. Stockport, Lancashire (1826)
Arthur Palmer – son- 12 – shoemaker – b. Tipton, Staffordshire (1849)
Theopholis Palmer – son- 9 – scholar – b. Dudley Port, Staffordshire (1852)
Samuel Palmer – son – 7 – scholar – b. Rounds Green, Worcestershire (1854)
Emanuel Palmer – son – 5 – scholar – b. Rounds Green, Worcestershire (1856)
Enoch Palmer - son – 3 – b. Rounds Green, Worcestershire (1858)
Emelia Palmer – daughter – 1 – b. Smethwick, Staffordshire (1860)
Jane Barber – servant – 12 – house servant – b. Ashton, Lancashire (1849) (relative of Mary Ann’s?)

1851 Canal Street, Tipton
Joseph Palmer – head – 27 – shoemaker - Journeyman – b. Henley in Arden
Maryann Palmer – wife – 25 – b Stourport, Worcestershire
(blank) Palmer – son - 2 – b. Tipton, Staffordshire (1849) – so probably Arthur on the 1861)
George Parkes –lodger – married – 23 – malster Journeyman – b. Inkberrow (1828)
Mary Ann Parker – lodger – married – 20 – b.Tipton, Staffordshire (1831)

I think this is Joseph age 16 – hopefully with his parents - William and Elizabeth
1841 Princes End, Tipton Dudley
William Palmer – 55 – not born in county (1786)
Elizabeth Palmer – 45 – b. Staffordshire (1796)
Thomas Palmer – 28 – b. Staffordshire (1813)
John Palmer – 20 - b. Staffordshire (1821)
Joseph Palmer – 16 –b. Staffordshire (1825)
Benjamin Palmer-13 - b. Staffordshire (1828)
Elizabeth Palmer – 11- b. Staffordshire (1830)
Ester Palmer – 9 - b. Staffordshire (1832)

This is great Polly.
Will look in detail tomorrow.
i had the 1851 census but not the other two.
i will try and locate Mary Ann in Stockport or Stourport (on Severn).
i didn't get those certificates ordered so first job tomorrow.

 

[bewdley]

There is a birth for Abraham Palmer registered Mar 1869 Kings Norton 6c page 478, which is the same page as David.

Abraham's death was registered in March quarter 1870 aged 1. Kings Norton 6c 343.

 

[pollypops]

Well done bewdley - Abraham is sounding very promising being on the same page!

 

[mhemery]

I think its been established, that its the time on the birth certificate, but i'd just like to show you my aunt and uncle,s certificate,s as they were twins. all the best Michael.

 

[Astoness]

been following this thread with great interest..thanks to others for sharing their twin birth certs i have found it most enlightening...cant think of another forum where we would get so much help and advise...

cheers

lyn

 

[Alberta]

Well said Lyn, a really interesring thread and so much input by members.
The newspaper cutting is a gem,the headline like something out of a tabloid and if he got 2 months with hard labour for this offence what had he done to get
6 months previously.

Todays birth certificates still have the time on for twins but I think it was first used for royalty and nobility to ascertain who inherited the title.

Alberta

 

[ARippin]

Great and thanks again to you all.... dog walk then ordering some certs.
As soon as they turn up I will update you all.


As for the bike stealing.... the newspaper clipping is great and I can share with you that David also turns up in prison records elsewhere!!
As David Lloyd in HMP Wakefield as well as Wexford prison Ireland as George Davis.
(I agree with Bernard... makes your ancestors much more interesting, and not only that it's more likely they will be documented in some way).


Photos of David Palmer in the group 'Unknown Birmingham folk' for anyone interested in putting a face to the name.

 

[ARippin]

Just ordered Abraham Palmer's birth cert (to see if he was David's twin).

also

Mary Ann Palmer's death cert.
Both events Kings Norton, Jan/March 1869

I haven't ordered Abraham's death cert in 1870 due to cost and until I'm sure Abraham is the twin.
(thanks 'bewdley' for your input).

Despatch date (estimated) is 19th March so will let you all know how it turns out.

I'm still pinching myself with all the input... and all I asked was whether anyone could read what was written in the 'date and address' column. I'm racking my brain to see what brick walls I've hit in the past before I joined this forum!!

Thanks again and will keep you posted.

 

[mhemery]

Hi ARippin Came across this on ancestry.co.uk do'nt know if you already have it, thought i'd post it here as it certainly redeems your gt grandfather David Palmer, after the story of the bike, All the best, Michael.

 

[ARippin]

Yes I found this in the National Roll of the Great War on Ancestry, but only relatively recently so really really appreciate you looking and posting this.

It's so rewarding finding out about your ancestors (good and bad) and piecing together their lives.

I find it strange (but great) that he joined the Gloucestershire Regt at the age of 45 and fought on the Western Front, being wounded and sent to a hospital in Rouen suffering from a GSW (gun shot wound) to the scalp in 1915!! Then joining the Royal Flying Corps as an Aircraft Mechanic in 1918 (which then became the RAF). This was obtained from his service record on Ancestry too.

I recently retraced his steps (not as accurately as I'd have liked) and travelled from the Somme in the south (France) to Ypres in the north (Belgium). Amazing, moving and surreal all rolled into one.

If I can return the favour for you (or any others reading this) as I have a Worldwide subscription to Ancestry, then please don't hesitate to ask. I might not be as quick as some of you on this forum tho!!!

P.S. There' are 3 pics of David on the group 'unknown Birmingham folk' if anyone wants to put a face to the name.

 

[ARippin]

Hi everyone,

the certificates have turned up and thanks to you all I now have a new name to add to my tree.

As we (you) established, the time on my Great Grandfathers birth cert indicated he was more than likely a twin and this is how it proved to be...

'Abraham - born Twenty second January 1869 1h 5m pm Grove Lane Smethwick' (son of 'Joseph Palmer' and 'Mary Ann Palmer (deceased) formerly Barber').

So my Great Grandfather David Palmer was born 10 mins earlier at 12.55.

I'm happy to scan the cert and upload it if anyone is interested.

I will scan the death cert of their mother Mary Ann and upload it separately as the cause of death is difficult to make out (yet more help required please!!!)..... To follow.

 

[ARippin]

As promised... poor Mary lingered on for a month after giving birth to David then Abraham.

I can make out most of the cause of death as;

'Phlegmatic (or Phlegmatia) Delaus??? 3 weeks'
'Gangrene of leg 10 days'
'P????? 24 hours' (I thought of Peritoitis but dont think it is).

Any thoughts?

I'm now reading about childbirth and mortality rates in Victorian times.... its a wonder any mother/child survived.

 

[sospiri]

The third cause of death was Tetanus - 24 hours.

Maurice