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Help, Advice And Search Needed Please

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
I can't find a likely candidate for Alfred Green on the 1881 census, neither can I find a death that I'd be sure off.

He may have been dead by 1881 or he may not have been. You've got to remember that a lot of people couldn't read or write and censuses were taken by an official. Mistakes happened.

I can't see any more likely children for Alfred & Naomi.

George Canning Hodges was the second man she married, Naomi is listed as Green on the registration.

On the 1891 census it appears Naomi is listed as the wife of a George Murry. There's a lot of errors for this listing (her mother is listed wrongly as Green). I don't know if these are just transcription errors or wrong on the actual census. The details for George Murry are consistent for those of George Canning Hodges(b185o Bristol) and as he doesn't seem to appear on the 1891 census, I suspect 'George Murry' might be George Canning Hodges.

That they don't marry until later is not uncommon.

If Alfred was away in the army, would this maybe explain his absence? I dont have subscriptions so ive googled Alfred Green Warickshire born est date 1854 and it brought up links to army records, I know its not certain but im not able to view them to check.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Alfred's father Daniel dies in 1880 at Powick, Worcestershire here's a copy of his will.

View attachment 112846

Thank you again Bewdley, does this state who they will was directed too? Who got what he left?
Ive not started this search yet but its next on my list, I didnt know where to start so appreciate this info.

Its strange that several of my family lines lead back to Stourbridge and the same place near London too. I use to frequently visit Stourbridge as my childrens father has relatives there but I never imagined having my own links to there, it is a beautiful place. I dont think I know thise places you listed but I will look them up, I love seeing where my ancestors were at the time the info was recorded.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
There is a marriage registered for a George Frederick H Green Dec qtr 1901, Birmingham. One of the possible spouses is a Phoebe Ann Green.

There is a birth registered for a Charles William Green registered Jun qtr 1903, Birmingham. Mmn listed as Sheppard.

On the 1911 census there are a Harry, Phoebe & Charles Green of the appropriate ages living in Birmingham.

And there is a Cyril & Mary E registered with mmn Shepherd/Shephard.

There is nothing further available to connect Cyril & Mary E with Harry & Phoebe. To be certain you would need to purchase their birth certificates.

I believe these to be all correct as I have a list of family names with some dates, these details seem to match what I have, my main questioning was Mary because I had her on the list as Ethel and I didnt know who she was but her middle name explains that she must of been known as Ethel and ive since discovered she was Cyrils sister. Cyril is my Gt Grandfather and im certain of his parents because I have a living Gt Uncle and Gt Aunt who confirmed this, im actually going to visit my Gt Uncle again today because he has sorted out some certificates for me that may help confirm a few things too.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
The entries are as on the census: Ellen is down as Green with Harry listed as her grandson. Then it has George Murry as a boarder born Clifton, Gloucestershire and Naomi born Bucks, Aylsburry (!). Next to Naomi is simply says "do" (ditto I assume) and wife.

This is very confusing and I do believe there are many errors here.

Maybe GREEN for Ellen was meant for Naomi? Along with Harry, because this was only a few yrs after she married Alfred and im considering that he may of been in the army which would explain his absence. Ellen would of been Payne Lovegrove, her marriage name and this George Murry could of just been a border as his place of birth is different to George Canning Hodges?
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Naomi doesn't marry George Canning Hodges until Sept quarter 1898, but George dies on 22 Sept 1898 (death info is from the index to death duties on FMP).

1901 census Naomi Hodges and Ellen Lovegrove are living with their relation (cousin, nephew) Thomas Pollicott and his family at the Horse and Jockey Inn in Oxford.

Naomi gets married again in 1909 to Thomas Jones (born Manchester 1862) and in 1911 is living with him at 82 Norton Street, Birmingham.

There is a death for Naomi Jones aged 57, Jun 1916 Birmingham 6d 240.

Thank you so much for all this information. I believe my guess above is right, that Naomi had no link to George Murry but him bordering with her Mother. I wonder what was happening with her George if he passed away so soon after being married. It would of been a very difficult search for me with so many errors and name and place changes so I appreciate all the help im being given.
 

MWS

master brummie
Re post #39 - as it appears that they were only together for a short time, had only a single child and that Harry possibly never knew his father, this could explain the lack of Daniels.

Re post #40 - Bewdley has posted the marriage certificate on post #29 and as you can she lists her step father's name as her father, not uncommon.

Re post #41 - it appears Alfred was born in Stourbridge, Worcestershire so it would seem unlikely that the Alfred Green born Warks and in the army is him.

Re post #44 - I can't explain why the 1881 census lists the name as they are. However I would say that I do think George Murry is George Canning Hodges. His birth and baptism are listed in Clifton, which is now a suburb of Bristol. Why Ellen is listed as Green, I don't know but I think that Naomi is correctly listed with the same name as George (though it's the wrong one) and as his 'wife'.

Re post #45 - it's possibly that they married then because he was ill and perhaps dying. I've got virtually the same scenario with my great great grandmother, who was living with a man in 1901 as his 'wife'. They didn't marry until 1910 and he was dead later the same year.

The question is what happened to Alfred. Did he die or did he leave Naomi? Was he still alive in 1891 and was that the reason why George and Naomi didn't get married? Did they only marry after Alfred had died and George's death was just an unfortunate coincidence? Alfred Green might just be too common a name to find out.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Re post #39 - as it appears that they were only together for a short time, had only a single child and that Harry possibly never knew his father, this could explain the lack of Daniels.

Re post #40 - Bewdley has posted the marriage certificate on post #29 and as you can she lists her step father's name as her father, not uncommon.

Re post #41 - it appears Alfred was born in Stourbridge, Worcestershire so it would seem unlikely that the Alfred Green born Warks and in the army is him.

Re post #44 - I can't explain why the 1881 census lists the name as they are. However I would say that I do think George Murry is George Canning Hodges. His birth and baptism are listed in Clifton, which is now a suburb of Bristol. Why Ellen is listed as Green, I don't know but I think that Naomi is correctly listed with the same name as George (though it's the wrong one) and as his 'wife'.

Re post #45 - it's possibly that they married then because he was ill and perhaps dying. I've got virtually the same scenario with my great great grandmother, who was living with a man in 1901 as his 'wife'. They didn't marry until 1910 and he was dead later the same year.

The question is what happened to Alfred. Did he die or did he leave Naomi? Was he still alive in 1891 and was that the reason why George and Naomi didn't get married? Did they only marry after Alfred had died and George's death was just an unfortunate coincidence? Alfred Green might just be too common a name to find out.

I have barely started my Green line so I really hope once im into it a light will shine on Alfred, it would be a shame if I didnt find further info on him because our current family Name is still Green, myself, my Dad Nigel, Grandad Phil, Gtgd Cyril, Gt Gtgd Harry, 3xGtgd Alfred, 4xGtgd Daniel so with Daniel and Anns names I hope to take it further. So far us Greens have been the hardest trace, typical lol!

Sadly I was stuck at an appointment too long today so I only got half hour with my Uncle before I had to leave, I didnt have long enough to go through all the certs so im going to visit again next week and copy them all, I hope they will help me, the few I saw have info ive not seen before.

Am I right in thinking the only way I can confirm Naomis marriages are with the certs? Would this clear up the Canning Hodges/Murry business? Could his Fathers name help if its on the cert? Sorry if I missed something but were both Georges from Bristol then? I think I the Gloucester part of this post took Bristol from my mind because I didnt realise there is a Clifton there too.
The entries are as on the census: Ellen is down as Green with Harry listed as her grandson. Then it has George Murry as a boarder born Clifton, Gloucestershire and Naomi born Bucks, Aylsburry (!). Next to Naomi is simply says "do" (ditto I assume) and wife.
 

MWS

master brummie
I don't think there's any doubt that Naomi married both Alfred Green & George Canning Hodges. And Thomas Jones as well. The censuses corroborate this. The certificate for her first marriage would reveal nothing more than the church record that Bewdley has already posted (I think they are identical).

The registration for her second marriage lists Naomi as Green, so there's no marriage in between. Even if the two Georges were not the same person then it would only be small annoyance because he isn't your ancestor anyway. Both Georges' birthplaces are listed as Clifton.

Alfred Green was the son of Daniel Green & Ann Skelden/Skelding. Here is their marriage...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6W5-489
 

bewdley

master brummie
Here's a copy of the marriage cert of Daniel Green and Ann Skelding in Kinver where their son married Naomi, quite a distance in those days to travel, I'm wondering what their connection to Kinver was ????? more questions.

Thanks MWS for the heads up with this - Traceylou84 more be pulling her hair out it's such a muddle!!

DANIEL GREEN MARRIAGE 1842.jpg
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
I don't think there's any doubt that Naomi married both Alfred Green & George Canning Hodges. And Thomas Jones as well. The censuses corroborate this. The certificate for her first marriage would reveal nothing more than the church record that Bewdley has already posted (I think they are identical).

The registration for her second marriage lists Naomi as Green, so there's no marriage in between. Even if the two Georges were not the same person then it would only be small annoyance because he isn't your ancestor anyway. Both Georges' birthplaces are listed as Clifton.

Alfred Green was the son of Daniel Green & Ann Skelden/Skelding. Here is their marriage...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6W5-489

Thanks for explaining, I just hope I dont miss something and be sure there was no further children. I really would like to work out what happened to Alfred but guess I may never know.

Thank you for his parents, I was searching all evening but couldnt find a definate record, I find this hard sometimes, do you mind me asking how you search? What info you put in? I seem to put in too much and get no records or too little and end up with hundreds
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Here's a copy of the marriage cert of Daniel Green and Ann Skelding in Kinver where their son married Naomi, quite a distance in those days to travel, I'm wondering what their connection to Kinver was ????? more questions.

Thanks MWS for the heads up with this - Traceylou84 more be pulling her hair out it's such a muddle!!

View attachment 112868

Thank you again Bewdley, youve been very helpful and I appreciate this because it can get confusing lol.
I assume there would of been churches closer, so maybe their ancestors married there and they wanted to continue the tradition, something else that I may never discover!
It is a beautiful church and its webIte states they will allow marriages if parents were married there, I realise these may be new rules but not much of the church rules do change so could of been the same at the time, more questions...
 

MWS

master brummie
Thank you for his parents, I was searching all evening but couldnt find a definate record, I find this hard sometimes, do you mind me asking how you search? What info you put in? I seem to put in too much and get no records or too little and end up with hundreds

When looking for someone I always start with familysearch because you can see the transcriptions for free. Then if that doesn't help I try Findmypast or Ancestry, though it's little more time consuming without a subscription.

Taking Alfred Green for example - I had his name and then from his and Naomi's marriage certificate there was an approximate age, a possible father & an occupation. There was no place of birth but I just started local.

Entered Alfred Green, birth 1854 - 1858 Staffordshire, father's name Daniel - which resulted in nothing suitable.

Changed Staffordshire to Worcestershire - which resulted in Alfred b1854, son of Daniel & Ann and in 1871 his occupation was plumber apprentice.

A straightforward one really as there was no need to trace other relatives looking for connections.
 

MWS

master brummie
Here's a copy of the marriage cert of Daniel Green and Ann Skelding in Kinver where their son married Naomi, quite a distance in those days to travel, I'm wondering what their connection to Kinver was ????? more questions.

Looking at the map it doesn't look to be too far between Stourbridge & Kinver. About 5 miles maybe?

Daniel appears to be the son of William & Sebra Green. Here's his baptism...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NPJH-HG4

They had a lot more children.

Here's William & Sebra in 1851...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGCL-YFB

William's occupation is Engineer which I think is what it says on Daniel's marriage.

Not sure if it will be possible to trace further back than William with any certainty.
 

MWS

master brummie
As already mentioned Phoebe Ann Shepherd's family came from the Brierley Hill are and so do Harry Green's. And I now suspect that Harry & Phoebe may have been related, though distantly.

Harry Green was the son of Alfred Green & Naomi Lovegrove
Alfred Green was the son of Daniel Green & Ann Skelden
Daniel Green was the son of William Green & Sebra Cartwright
Sebra Cartwright was the daughter of Luke Cartwright & Ann ?
Luke Cartwright was the son of John Cartwright & Ann ?

Luke's baptism - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JS6Q-TYW

Phoebe Ann Sheppard was the daughter of William Sheppard & Mary Webb
Mary Webb was the daughter of James Webb & Margaaret Cartwright
Margaret Cartwright was the daughter of Samuel Cartwright & Phoebe Gill
Samuel Cartwright was the son of Job Cartwright & Ann Batham (?)
Job Cartwright was the son of Samuel Cartwright & Sarah Taylor (?)
Samuel Cartwright was the son John Cartwright & Ann ?

Samuel's baptism - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7RG-QG8

So I think Harry was one generation older than Phoebe making them fourth cousins once removed. If correct I wonder if the relevant families had contact over all those years or was their marriage just a coincidence.
 
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bewdley

master brummie
copy and past the two lines of this link for a little more info re Daniel Green who died in Powick Mental Hospital patient number 4142

https://theinfirmary.educationhost.co.uk/SearchResults.php? Name=green&Age=&Sex=M&Status=M&Disorder=&Outcome=&Abode=&Admitted=&Discharged=&Page=1&Search=

once you have found him click on his name and it will bring up his record - I had to save it so I could enlarge it - so sad to read and so real to me at the moment as my mum is 91 and has dementia.
 
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Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Firstly id like to apologise as I had some bad news recently so I havent been online or done any researching for a few weeks and im now in the middle of a house move too so im sorry for my delayed replies.

Thank you both for all this information you have given me, youve got me further than id ever imagined. Its very interesting to know that Harry and Pheobe were related and I wonder if they were in contact or knew they were cousins, and to have health records of Daniel is amazing but it was very sad to read and im sorry to hear that your mom has that horrible disease, so good that shes got to a great age. I had a stroke last year and I have longterm and shorterm memory loss (which isnt good when researching) I know how horrible and confusing that feels. When it comes to very bad dementia and alzheimers its sadly their family and friends that suffer most.

I cant thank you both enough for all your help and information, its very lind of you to give your time.
 
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