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Help, Advice And Search Needed Please

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Details from the baptism record at St Chrysostom Church. Born 22 Aug 1911 and baptised 13 Sept. Address 57 Factory Road, Parents Harry and Phoebe. Occupation Iron Plate worker.
1955 e roll has a Cyril and Kathleen Green listed at 110 Preston Road but in 1950 only Cyril is listed. I should add that the online lists on Ancestry stop in 1955 so I can't check later dates.

Thank you for the baptism details, Kay moved in the day they married so that would explain why she wasnt there in 1950. Cyril found out about the bigamy that same evening, its not known how but he sent his daughter to the police station to report her but Cyril then came after her and said to leave it. My gt uncle guesses it was about 12mths afterwards (but could be more) that the police came for her. If only Cyril hadnt stopped his daughter, his children may of had better lives. Kay was an evil woman to everyone she met but even more so to Cyrils children from his late wife. I dont think we will ever know how she got away with all she did.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
I would say Rayne is just a mistake because here is his baptism...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5J1-T1R

There are many reason's why Alfred isn't listed, he could have been working away, in prison, visiting parents or abandoned the family. Incidentally Naomi's mother isn't there either and is with her sister in law for some reason. Information on a census is for the day of the census only. It wouldn't matter if you were there for the rest of the year if you weren't there on the day of the census you shouldn't be listed.

Some children take there step father's name and some don't, it looks like in this case she did. Not sure what the confusion was with using Payne instead of Lovegrove for marriage & Harry's birth.

I don't think there were any checks on info on birth certificates. I've had illegitimate ancestors listed with no father's name and others with a made up one. It was probably more difficult in a village where most people knew each other.

Thank you for explaining why some people seem to be missing, it does make the search harder though, I expected census to be addresses they lived at so that info should help me in future.

My children have a problem with their history because of their grandad having his stepfathers name and his birth cert only shows his mothers maiden name as he was illegitimate, they dont have contact with the family so will never know their true biological name
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Both Cyril & Kathleen GREEN at 110 Preston Road in 1957, 1960, 1962 & 1965 with the addition of a Michael CRONIN in 1960 only.

Maurice

Michael Cronin is Kathleens nephew. I didnt know dates he was there but my gt uncle and gt aunt remember him staying. Thanks
 
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Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Can I just take a moment to thank you all for your help, you have been amazing and have saved me (probably) months of researching.

Im a little overwhelmed with all the information at the moment so I am going to work at putting all the info into order so I can access and understand it more easily. I hope you dont mind me coming back if I find anything im not sure of.
 

sospiri

Ex-pat Brummie
Tracey,

We're always happy to help and to many of us it is more exciting than playing Cluedo!

Maurice
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
It would appear that Naomi's 'husband' on the 1881 census wasn't really here husband because there's no marriage listed but there is a marriage listed for a Naomi Green & a George Canning Hodges in Bham, Sep qtr 1898 and here she is 1901 with here mother living with a cousin...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9Y2-54R

And she's turning out to be a bit of a black widow because she marries again to a Thomas Jones, registered West Bromwich, Dec qtr 1909.

Hi,

Im just trying to work through this information. I wanted to check some details are correct, a marriage between Naomi & Alfred was found to be Sept qtr 1875 using nee Payne Lovegrove so want to check that this does prove he actually was her husband but just not at the address on the day of the census in 1881?
Is George Canning Hodges her second husband? Could she of been widowed before 1881 and that be the reason Alfred is missing from the census and why she married using his surname Green? I have no death dates for them all yet.

Could you also let me know where there is info to suggest she had taken a step fathers name because ive not been able to find that. Could her grandparents have double barrelled their surnames? I dont have a surname for Charles Mother, Naomis Grandmother Sarah.

Do you know if Naomi had further children with her other marriages?

What im looking at now is that
John & Sarah Lovegrove had
Charles Payne Lovegrove in 1836, this is Payne im questioning, could this be Sarahs nee)?
Charles had Naomi (illegitimate) with Ellen Montague in 1859 and married Ellen in 1860.
Naomi married Alfred Green in 1875 and had George Fredrick Harry Green (Harry) in 1878/79.
Harry married Phoebe Shephard in 1901 and had Charles Green born 1904/03 and Cyril Green born 1911 and Mary Ethel Green born 1914.

Could someone please confirm this for me before I enter them into my tree, id appreciate any further info you come across such as siblings.
 
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pjmburns

master brummie
There is definitely a marriage of Naomi and Alfred in 1875 as MWS said. If he died and she remarried she would have to use the surname Green - this she seems to have done when marrying George in 1898. This certificate should show if she listed herself as a widow. On the 1881 census she gives her status as married so I don't think we can assume Alfred was dead then.
 

bewdley

master brummie
I have found Alfred and Naomi's marriage which took place at St Peter's, alf green marriage to naomi l payne 1875 kinver.jpg
in Kinver, a lovely place, we walk the dogs there most days
 
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MWS

master brummie
Naomi was Ellen Montague's illegitimate daughter. I doubt that Charles Payne Lovegrove was the father.

As I said some children assume their step father's name and some don't. I doubt there was any official 'adoption' of the child. It's theoretical I suppose that if the children were very young they might not even know that their father wasn't really their father.
 

MWS

master brummie
I can't find a likely candidate for Alfred Green on the 1881 census, neither can I find a death that I'd be sure off.

He may have been dead by 1881 or he may not have been. You've got to remember that a lot of people couldn't read or write and censuses were taken by an official. Mistakes happened.

I can't see any more likely children for Alfred & Naomi.

George Canning Hodges was the second man she married, Naomi is listed as Green on the registration.

On the 1891 census it appears Naomi is listed as the wife of a George Murry. There's a lot of errors for this listing (her mother is listed wrongly as Green). I don't know if these are just transcription errors or wrong on the actual census. The details for George Murry are consistent for those of George Canning Hodges(b185o Bristol) and as he doesn't seem to appear on the 1891 census, I suspect 'George Murry' might be George Canning Hodges.

That they don't marry until later is not uncommon.
 

MWS

master brummie
There is a marriage registered for a George Frederick H Green Dec qtr 1901, Birmingham. One of the possible spouses is a Phoebe Ann Green.

There is a birth registered for a Charles William Green registered Jun qtr 1903, Birmingham. Mmn listed as Sheppard.

On the 1911 census there are a Harry, Phoebe & Charles Green of the appropriate ages living in Birmingham.

And there is a Cyril & Mary E registered with mmn Shepherd/Shephard.

There is nothing further available to connect Cyril & Mary E with Harry & Phoebe. To be certain you would need to purchase their birth certificates.
 

pjmburns

master brummie
On the 1891 census it appears Naomi is listed as the wife of a George Murry. There's a lot of errors for this listing (her mother is listed wrongly as Green). I don't know if these are just transcription errors or wrong on the actual census. The details for George Murry are consistent for those of George Canning Hodges(b185o Bristol) and as he doesn't seem to appear on the 1891 census, I suspect 'George Murry' might be George Canning Hodges.
.
The entries are as on the census: Ellen is down as Green with Harry listed as her grandson. Then it has George Murry as a boarder born Clifton, Gloucestershire and Naomi born Bucks, Aylsburry (!). Next to Naomi is simply says "do" (ditto I assume) and wife.
 

bewdley

master brummie
Naomi doesn't marry George Canning Hodges until Sept quarter 1898, but George dies on 22 Sept 1898 (death info is from the index to death duties on FMP).

1901 census Naomi Hodges and Ellen Lovegrove are living with their relation (cousin, nephew) Thomas Pollicott and his family at the Horse and Jockey Inn in Oxford.

Naomi gets married again in 1909 to Thomas Jones (born Manchester 1862) and in 1911 is living with him at 82 Norton Street, Birmingham.

There is a death for Naomi Jones aged 57, Jun 1916 Birmingham 6d 240.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Naomi was Ellen Montague's illegitimate daughter. I doubt that Charles Payne Lovegrove was the father.

As I said some children assume their step father's name and some don't. I doubt there was any official 'adoption' of the child. It's theoretical I suppose that if the children were very young they might not even know that their father wasn't really their father.

Thanks, I get it now, I was presuming she was Charles's and that they married after she was born, this may through my whole line off
Ive very new to this researching so forgive me if I get something wrong or dont completely understand.
Was there any Fathers name on the marriage certs?
 
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