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Help, Advice And Search Needed Please

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Hi, im a new member so will apologise if this post is in the wrong place.

I would appriciate help with finding a newpaper or court hearing details on a bigamy marriage in 1953, do you know if these records are accessible? Ive searched many sites but have got nowhere. I know these exist because my gt uncle has read them but when my other gt uncle (who held all our family research) died most of the research was lost. She may have gone to prison for this too if there may be records of that? She used different names at the time, Kathleen Green (bigamy marriage), Kathleen Hayes (first marriage and name she was using when she married 2nd husband), Kathleen O'Neill (maiden name), Kathleen also may of been a fake name though this is on her passport, I have been told her real first name could be Mary. Born in Cork Ireland. Bigamy marriage 2/2/1952 and discovered 1953 but she was married again legally 18/8/1962 to same man Cyril Green Preston Rd Winson Green born 22/8/1911. Kathleen was born 21/10/1922 died 31/12/1987.

I am also under the impression that my Gt Grandfather Cyril Green had a painting hung in Birmingham town hall, do you know where I could find information on this and if its still there? Unfortunately I dont know what the painting was of.

Can someone please confirm parents and hopefully siblings too of Cyril Green for me? Born 22/8/1911 died 23/11/1983, brother Charles 9/5/1903/04 died 9/7/1978, sister known as Ethel but could be Mary Ethel 16/3/1914 died 21/11/1977 and presumed sisters Olivia/Olive and Joyce no confirmed dates.
I hope fathers name is either Harry Green or George Fredrick Harry and mothers Pheobe Shephard/Shepherd both born abt 1878, George Fredrick Harry/Harry died 1/5/1934, Pheobe died 23/5/1957

Thank you in advance
 

MWS

master brummie
Can't help with your first two queries but can with the third a little.

There is a marriage registered for a George Frederick H Green in Bham, Dec qtr 1901 and one of the possible spouses is a Phoebe Ann Shephard.

On the 1911 census there is a Harry Green listed (b1878 Stourbridge) listed in Bham, with wife Phoebe (b1878 Hanley), a son Charles (b1904 Brierley Hill) and a fourth person Alice Ashford (b1838 Bham). I suspect though that the birth places for Phoebe & Charles might not be quite right.

There is a baptism listed for a Charles William Green at All Saints, Hockley 27 May 1903, dob 9 May 1903, parents listed as Harry & Phoebe. The birth is listed in Bham, which is why I suspect his place of birth on the census is wrong.

There is also a baptism for a Cyril Green listed on Ancestry, parents Harry & Phoebe, but a subscription is needed to see anymore.

There is a birth registered for a Mary E Green, Bham Jun qtr 1914. Mother's maiden name Shepherd. Can't see any births for Olive or Joyce Green with mmn Shepherd.
 

Alberta

Super Moderator
Staff member
If you could obtain the marriage certificate of Cyril to Kathleen it will have her fathers name on it which will be a good start in your search for her family.
George Frederick H Green married Phoebe Ann Sheppard 1901
1911 census
52 Factory road , birmingham
Harry Green age 33 b Stourbridge
Phoebe Green age 33 birth says Harley but other census say Brierley hill
Charles 7 b Brierley hill
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Thank you both, Ann is Phoebes middle name so I believe that to be a match. These do seem to confirm the details I have.
The male names are confusing me, could this be because his name is officially George Fredrick Harry but he adopted Harry as his first name? So they are the same person basically?
I have not been able to find details of Harrys parents, Green was a very common name so thats making my search difficult.

From what I gather Phoebes family did come from Brierley Hill but they or she ended up in Sutton Coldfield from my Gt Aunts memory but im yet to discover proof of this.

1901 census told me Mary & William Shephard 68 Well st, children Pheobe 23, William 20, Fredrick 18, Henry 16. Mary (mother) born in Brierley Hill, William (father) born in London this surprises me as I presumed all my relatives were from the west midlands. I wouldnt have a clue where to start with tracing London relatives, ive never visited there and wouldnt know the areas.
From these records would you believe there were only 3 children of Harry and Phoebes? Charles, Cyril and Mary Ethel? Or could more not be found because of the closed census? I am starting to think Joyce and Olive/Olivia are Charles or Mary Ethels children, I have est 27/6/1926 as Joyce dob but nothing for Olive.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
I found this on the remarriage of Cyril and Kathleen, I dont know why there are 4 records, it states the question marks mean a comment has been left about the entries but it wont allow me to open it.
If anyone has further access to these records could you please let me know what is there.
 

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MWS

master brummie
I wouldn't worry about the name, there are many reasons why he may have decided to go by Harry. Maybe he just preferred it or another family member was called George. Everyone called by nan Annie but her name was really Sarah Ann.

The question marks are there because the bride is listed with two names, usually occurs when a woman marries for a second time and so has a former name.

Joyce and Olive are Charles' children. Charles W Green & Gladys Allaway marriage registered Bham N, Sep qtr 1925.

Joyce R Green birth registered West Bromwich, Sep qtr 1926 - mmn Holloway.

Olive Green birth registered Bham, Mar qtr 1934 - mmn Allaway.
 
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sospiri

Ex-pat Brummie
Tracey,

Unless celebrities are involved, bigamy only tends to be reported in local newspapers, and there are no Birmingham newspapers yet online after 1950. In addition, are you sure that the court case actually took place in 1953? I've checked all 134 bigamy cases for reported in 1953 that are online and none involve the names you mention. I doubt very much whether court records as recent as this are online.

Maurice
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Thank you MWS for explaining the question marks and for confirming the further information.

With Harry using different names I was afraid it may be a different person, fortunately Phoebe isnt so common!

Looks like my thoughts were right and they were Charles' children, thats a big help and I cant thank you enough for the London links because id of not known where to start with them. Im quite new to researching.

Very much appreciated, Tracey
 

MWS

master brummie
George Frederick Harry Green is a little more complicated.

His birth is registered Stourbridge, Sep qtr 1877. Mmn is listed as Payne.

Here he is in 1881 with mother and grandfather...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27F-V5FY

As you can see though, grandfather's name is Lovegrove but his full name turns out to be Charles Payne Lovegrove.

Naomi's marriage to Alfred Green is registered Wolverhampton, Sep qtr 1875. She is listed as Naomi Lovegrove Payne.

From the 1881 census you can see Naomi was born in Haddenham, Bucks but there is no birth registered for a Naomi Payne or Lovegrove. Which is because she was the illegitimate daughter of Ellen Montague, registered Aylesbury, Sep qtr 1858.

Ellen Montague's marriage to Charles Rayne (?) Lovegrove registered Aylesbury, Jun qtr 1860.
 

Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Hi Maurice,

Thank you for looking.

I do believe it was a local newspaper, if they are not available after 1950 that eould explain my difficultly finding the article.
I am working my tree off 2 pieces of paper that came from my gt uncle which is just a list of names and some have dates of birth, marriage, death etc. It states here the 2 marriage dates only, I think my uncle is under the impression she was charged in 1953 but only by memory of the article and the arrest, they remember the police coming for her etc but no im not sure that the year is correct. There seems to be a long time between their marriages (10yrs), I dont know if this was because she was in prison or because it took long to divorce her ex husband or both but they did have 3 children in this time. Cyril jr born exactly 12mths after the bigamy marriage 2/2/1953, Kenneth born 3/1/1955 and George born 13/1/1962. I dont have copies of their birth certs to know exactly where they were born.
 
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Traceylou84

knowlegable brummie
Wow MWS I would of definitely struggled with that search! Stourport is a long way from London so id probably be stuck searching London records so thank you again.
I presume the 'Rayne' is just a typo for Payne. Is it strange that Harrys father isnt recorded living with his mother and her grandparents?

To do further searches would I need to use her Mothers name? Or once her parents married would she automatically take her fathers name.

Today you can put any surname on a birth cert, back then did it have to be the Mothers if she wasnt married?
 

pjmburns

master brummie
Can't help with your first two queries but can with the third a little.

There is also a baptism for a Cyril Green listed on Ancestry, parents Harry & Phoebe, but a subscription is needed to see anymore.
Details from the baptism record at St Chrysostom Church. Born 22 Aug 1911 and baptised 13 Sept. Address 57 Factory Road, Parents Harry and Phoebe. Occupation Iron Plate worker.
 

pjmburns

master brummie
1955 e roll has a Cyril and Kathleen Green listed at 110 Preston Road but in 1950 only Cyril is listed. I should add that the online lists on Ancestry stop in 1955 so I can't check later dates.
 

MWS

master brummie
I would say Rayne is just a mistake because here is his baptism...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5J1-T1R

There are many reason's why Alfred isn't listed, he could have been working away, in prison, visiting parents or abandoned the family. Incidentally Naomi's mother isn't there either and is with her sister in law for some reason. Information on a census is for the day of the census only. It wouldn't matter if you were there for the rest of the year if you weren't there on the day of the census you shouldn't be listed.

Some children take there step father's name and some don't, it looks like in this case she did. Not sure what the confusion was with using Payne instead of Lovegrove for marriage & Harry's birth.

I don't think there were any checks on info on birth certificates. I've had illegitimate ancestors listed with no father's name and others with a made up one. It was probably more difficult in a village where most people knew each other.
 

MWS

master brummie
It would appear that Naomi's 'husband' on the 1881 census wasn't really here husband because there's no marriage listed but there is a marriage listed for a Naomi Green & a George Canning Hodges in Bham, Sep qtr 1898 and here she is 1901 with here mother living with a cousin...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9Y2-54R

And she's turning out to be a bit of a black widow because she marries again to a Thomas Jones, registered West Bromwich, Dec qtr 1909.
 
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sospiri

Ex-pat Brummie
Both Cyril & Kathleen GREEN at 110 Preston Road in 1957, 1960, 1962 & 1965 with the addition of a Michael CRONIN in 1960 only.

Maurice
 
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