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Gun Trade Factories

Re: gun trade fatories

Greeners_Gun_Factory_edit.jpg


This is a lovely drawing of W.W.Greener's gun factory taken from a book published in 1888. It shows what a large factory it was.
 
Re: gun trade fatories

Wendy, what a great picture.
Has anyone got any idea how I can find out where my great grandfather worked - he was a gunmaker in the 1911 census, but I have no idea where, although dad lived with him as a child, it was never mentioned. They lived in Victoria Street, Bordesley at the time, any ideas of where I can look would be great.
Thanks, Sue
 
Re: gun trade fatories

hello all
has anyone ever compiled a list of all the gun making firms both famous and obscure that operated from the GUN QUARTER, as it should always be known ? i know a lot of the swanky london makers had the majority of work done on their shotguns and rifles done in birmingham and they were only sent to be finished in london. Its sad to see idiots trying to rewrite a 200 year history because of some silly politically correct notion. don't they know how much work was done by the gunmakers of birmingham towards the war effort for instance ?
 
Re: gun trade fatories

This emblematic plate from around 1837 lists a some of the Birmingham gun makers - by no way intended to be comprehensive, only those that chose to advertise in
Cornishes Grand Junction Railway Companion. Viv

Gunmakers_Birmingham_1800.JPG
 
Re: gun trade fatories

Hi Dek ;
how are you keeping fine i hope; on your thread you mentioned the gun quarter of aston where about
would they have been ; especialy in the late 1800,s to the early 1900s i presume ;
as my daughter as come into contact with a person whom i beleive is illsley ; i think i have spelt it correctly
and she tells me her mother or her grand mother married into a jelfs and that jelfs and this illsley
got together and made guns or pistols and and started selling them i think it was in the 1800s but i do know that jelf kept a gun shop in carrs lane birmingham in the early 1900s and i was wondering whether or not you or some one could throw some light on this for me long before i ever became a member of he forum and my first ever foot in the libary
i met a little old fellow whom was doing his bussiness on the geology history of familys
this is when i first ever started to do the grand parents research i asked him to explain things on the machine and i i told him about te jelfs and he said emediatly that is old dad worked along with jelf on the benches doing gun barreling
i asked if he could tell me more he said he was busy and he would charge me alot of money for doing it
but then two years or more i learnt of this great site and became a member
and when i was little i remember carrs lane and the jelfs gun ;sports shop and started to think about this person whom told my daughter of the jelfs and the llselys of church lane aston and i remember the illsleys coal yard
and thats the illsleys she mentioned she was part of and the family member got married to a jelf whom was involved with this bussiness and as they are all in aston i was wondering whether or not if they had a little work shop i know there was a series of little hut type shop of gun makers oppersite the steel house lane police station way back in the 1800s and 1900s as my grand father was a police officier serving there and the jelf connections
so i am curious to try and ind out more as to whether there is any pics of there sghop in carrs lane for the early 1900s
up to about 1954 -55 or just later whenthis shop was there before they moved the bus stops and renovated carrs lane
best wishes astonian ; alan ;
 
Re: gun trade fatories

Here are a few posts I did several months ago. Hope they are useful to newer members of the Forum.

Birmingham Gun Quarter

I've got a copy of an article written by Dr D M Smith from the University of Manchester sometime around 1964. It makes fascinating reading (perhaps some of you have already read it.)

To paraphrase Dr D M Smith:

The Gun Quarter occupied an “L” shaped area on the western side of the General Hospital. The area contained an mixture of industrial and residential property, with the Georgian facades hiding a multitude of small factories and workshops created by the conversion and extension of what were originally built as town houses for the well-to-do. (see the illustrations earlier)

By no means all the workshops were occupied by gun makers, but it was as the gun manufacturing district that the area was recognised universally as a distinctive part of the city.

Two distinct concentrations of gun makers existed after the end of WW2, in the north around St Mary’s Row, Loveday Street and Price Street and to the south between Weaman Street, Whittall Strett and Steelhouse Lane.

“The concentration mentioned earlier represents the core of what was formerly a more extensive concentration, as the approximate limits of the Gun Quarter almost a century earlier indicate.” (See map on my first post)

“The first major incursion into the L-shaped area was made at the end of the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century when the Weaman Row-Russell Street area was cleared to make way for the General Hospital.

The reason for this concentration in such a small area is to be found in the organisation of the Gun Trade. At an early stage the need to speed up production led to division of labour and the trade soon separated into a number of branches, each specialising in one process. Perhaps the first activity to become clearly defined as a separate branch of the trade was the making of gun locks, which became concentrated in Wolverhampton and Willenhall during the 18[SUP]th[/SUP] century. Barrel welding probably developed as a separate trade during the same period.

The Gun Trade thus became divided into two main sections – the “material makers”, producing the various parts of the guns and the “setters-up” who did the assembly and finishing. Between these came the manufacturer, or “gun maker”, who collected together the products of the material makers and then put them out to the setters-up.

Pigot’s Commercial Directory of Birmingham published in 1829 listed persons engaged in the gun trade under 14 different headings.” (Table 1 on my first post indicates the variety of activities operating as separate branches even at this early date.) “The complex organisation of the trade is further emphasized by J. D. Goodman’s list of workmen employed in 1865, which includes 32 separately distinguished activities in the material making section, together employing 3,420 workers and 19 setting-up trades with a combined labour force of 3,920.

A few branches of the gun trade, such as lock-making were undertaken in the Black Country. The location of barrel-making, which required some heavy machinery, was restricted by the need for water or steam power (only 9 of the 27 gun barrel makers in Pigot’s 1829 Directory had locations within the Gun Quarter.) Most branches, however, could be carried on in any small factory or workshop and their congregation in one particular part of Birmingham was a natural result of the need for close contact between material maker, manufacturer and setter-up. If materials had to be collected from or sent out to places beyond the Gun Quarter, additional costs would arise from the consequent expenditure of time and effort.”

Gun Quarter Part 2

I now quote Dr Smith.

“The concentration mentioned earlier represents the core of what was formerly a more extensive concentration, as the approximate limits of the Gun Quarter almost a century earlier indicate.” (See map on my first post)

“The first major incursion into the L-shaped area was made at the end of the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century when the Weaman Row-Russell Street area was cleared to make way for the General Hospital.

The reason for this concentration in such a small area is to be found in the organisation of the Gun Trade. At an early stage the need to speed up production led to division of labour and the trade soon separated into a number of branches, each specialising in one process. Perhaps the first activity to become clearly defined as a separate branch of the trade was the making of gun locks, which became concentrated in Wolverhampton and Willenhall during the 18[SUP]th[/SUP] century. Barrel welding probably developed as a separate trade during the same period.

The Gun Trade thus became divided into two main sections – the “material makers”, producing the various parts of the guns and the “setters-up” who did the assembly and finishing. Between these came the manufacturer, or “gun maker”, who collected together the products of the material makers and then put them out to the setters-up.

Pigot’s Commercial Directory of Birmingham published in 1829 listed persons engaged in the gun trade under 14 different headings.” (Table 1 on my first post indicates the variety of activities operating as separate branches even at this early date.) “The complex organisation of the trade is further emphasized by J. D. Goodman’s list of workmen employed in 1865, which includes 32 separately distinguished activities in the material making section, together employing 3,420 workers and 19 setting-up trades with a combined labour force of 3,920.

A few branches of the gun trade, such as lock-making were undertaken in the Black Country. The location of barrel-making, which required some heavy machinery, was restricted by the need for water or steam power (only 9 of the 27 gun barrel makers in Pigot’s 1829 Directory had locations within the Gun Quarter.) Most branches, however, could be carried on in any small factory or workshop and their congregation in one particular part of Birmingham was a natural result of the need for close contact between material maker, manufacturer and setter-up. If materials had to be collected from or sent out to places beyond the Gun Quarter, additional costs would arise from the consequent expenditure of time and effort.”
 
This makes very interesting reading, and thanks for the photos and tables. I always imagined a gun was made from start to finish in one factory. Seems to spread much wider than Birmingham and must be a good early example of specialisation by a number of factories to produce one final product. And, of course, what an important role their products had in international history. Viv.
 
Re: gun trade fatories

Well,that´s my paternal family´s heritage down the pan.
My 4xg grandfather is recorded as being a gunmaker when he enlisted for the army in 1805. He returned from the Napoleonic Wars & started up his own gunmaking business in Deritend, later moving to Newtown Row & later still to Garrison Lane.
His eldest son, my 3xg grandfather went to Enfield to work as a gunmaker & took over the family business in 1850.
The tradition of gunmaking stayed in the family well into the 1900s.
It´s not something to be ashamed of & I would suggest that any link between the name Gun Quarter & gun crime in the area has come about over the last 20 years or so.
 
Re: gun trade fatories

Love the plate Topsyturvey. 'Blunderbuses' and 'Pikes' really are now a thing of the past. Here's another, this one is of Pritchards, depicting the sporting gentleman in the 1840s. Viv
William_Pritchard_Gun_Maker_Bull_Ring.JPG
 
The Birmingham Gun Trade

I have only just joined this Forum and wanted to see what recollections some may have had of the Gun Trade. I can't find anything! perhaps I may not be looking in the right place (I stand to be corrected).
Anyway up, when I was 14yrs old in 1960, a schoolmate got me a part-time job as a "boy courier" which meant that I took various gun parts to the people who would repair them. i.e Damaged barrels to barrel makers, damaged stocks to stock makers, finished guns to the Proof House at the bottom of Banbury St.etc.etc. I worked for Rowland Keen who were situated right opposite the Catholic Church in Bath St before they moved to Lincoln Jefferies shop in Steelhouse Lane because of the snow Hill redevelopment. I was there for only 12 months before I left school for a fulltime job, but still have great memories of the "Gun trade" fraternity all based around Bath st, Bath Row, Weaman St, Loveday St & Price st.
 
As I stated in post #80 I first worked at Rowland Keen shop in Bath St on the corner of Shadwell St (opposite St Chads). Would love to see a photo if it exists. Also, any info on them would be welcome. Looking at that post again I notice I should have put St Marys Row NOT Bath Row!
 
Re: Gun Quarter Name Change

I have been reading the above with a strong sense of deja vu. I am an ex-brummie living in Bristol, a city founded mainly on slaves, alcohol and tobacco. I am trying to trace my ancestors and have discovered that several of them worked in the gun trade. Bristol has a statue of a guy called Edward Colston. He was involved in the slave trade and also gave large amounts of money to found schools, almshouses and other worthwhile causes. There are streets, a theatre and a school named after him and a regular intervals letters and articles appear in the local rag saying that the names should be changed, the statue removed etc. If he had not accumulated that money (legally in those days) Bristol would be a poorer place today. Guns were an important part of Birmingham's history and should be recognised as such. Guns don't kill; people kill, sometimes using guns.
 
Re: gun trade fatories

I am appalled at this suggestion to obliterate the name Gun Quarter, generations of my family worked in this trade from at least 1841 the first census record I have, down to my dad as a boy running errands for the gunsmiths, carrying parts from one small workshop to another, and fetching dinners for the men in his lunchtime from school. I agree that a petition should be started to overrule this senseless decision, and I would be only too eager to sign it.
Hi Sylvia, I'm six years late but, a couple of years ago I tried to find a thread but didn't, about people who worked part time from school in the gun trade.
Yours is the only reference I've seen that refers to the school lads who ran the errands. Like your Dad, I did the same thing.
In 1959 I worked for Rowland Keen in Bath St, taking various gun parts around the area for refurbishment. I got to know many different aspects of the trade, from barrel makers and stock makers to the Proof house personnel. When the re-development started, we moved to Lincoln Jeffries Shop in Steelhouse Lane. I earned 10/- a week and loved every minute until I left school in 1961.
 
Hi Banjo, my dad lived in Staniforth Street not far from Price Street, he was born in 1899 so I imagine the years he spent in the gun trade was from about 1908 until he left school in 1913. He said the men he worked for were very kind and often said they couldn't eat all their dinner - sandwiches I presume - and gave him some for which he was always extremely grateful as he came from a large family. One of the men asked dad to ask his mother whether he could buy him a new pair of boots - how's that for generosity - they were of course accepted.
 
how very kind sylvia especially when you consider that most people were not that well off...

lyn
 
There is no "gun quarter" anymore because all the little back alley buildings that the gun tradesmen worked in are gone.
When I worked part time after school as a kid in 1960, the streets I delivered gun parts to & collected gun parts from were Price Street, Loveday Street, Bath Street, Whittall Street, Weaman Street, and St Marys Row. I also had to do the weekly trip to the Proof House in Banbury Street who tested the barrels. Can't imagine a schoolboy walking around with gun parts today. Rowland Keen Ltd, the people I worked for were located on the corner of Bath St & Shadwell St (now gone) until the re-development of St Chad's Queensway. They then moved to Lincoln Jefferies shop in Steelhouse Lane (now gone). All gone now (except the Proof House) but, still fondly remembered.
 
Have just had a look again at the plans for HS2 station in Birmingham and have noticed that one of the roads to be closed off is marked "Access to Proof House only"so this road which will run under the station will be purely to serve the Proof House. I have to say that every time I am on a train passing Proof House Junction I look out for the Proof House with its interesting Coat of Arms over the door. It is a personal beef of mine that I want to know why the HS2 station will be called Curzon Street when the front entrance will be on Moor Street Queensway next door to the existing Moor Street Station.
 
I can only assume, David, the name Curzon Street is to avoid confusion for passengers who might end up in the older Moor Street when they really wished to travel on the new HS2 line. Whilst the plans show the stations as adjacent I am sure taxis for Moor Street do stop in front of the station whereas the new Curzon Street presumably has a separate and dedicated taxi loading area.
 
Actually Alan, the Taxi Rank will be in Park Street at the Moor Street end. I show below the plan for the HS2 Station and you will see that I have marked with a green circle; Old Curzon Street Station, Moor Street Station and the site of the Pavillions Shopping Centre where it is planned that there will be an entrance with a passageway under Moor Street Queensway. Labels for the Proof house are shown bottom right of the plan. There will be a link bridge over the Snow Hill lines to connect the old Moor Street Station to the new station. It looks like Fazeley Street, the original name of the HS2 station, with be for international arrivals and departures (if they ever link up HS1 & HS2)
Curzon Street HS2 Station.jpg
 
The main entrance, the plan suggests, is a little way from Moor Street entrance where the Fazeley Street access only is. I see the taxi pick up points but I am not sure whether this is a one way or bi-directional street. (Park Street?).
I notice another taxi drop off point mentioned in Curzon Street.
I might live long enough to read about HS1 completion but I will be surprised to see HS2 completion date. But, you never know.......:D
Personally I like the revival of Curzon Street as a station name, after all it appears to have been the original terminal of the first main line, from the Capital, to reach the city and the original structure somehow has managed to survive. That
maybe because the city probably had no jurisdiction over it. ;)
https://www.libraryofbirmingham.com/article/historyofcurzonstreetstation/curzonstreetstation

I know folks here just love pics, well, there are lots here of Curzon Street.
https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/curzonstreet_goods.htm

Apologies for going off topic. Maybe the posts re Curzon Street need relocating?
 
My ancestors the Mountfords (several generations of from David through Albert Edward to William Page Mountford) were all Gun Percussioners who lived on Bath Street from the 1820s through to the 1870s.
 
I learned in my family history research that two sides of my maternal ancestors were in the gun trade in Halesowen - several on "my" humble ancestors' side were gun barrel filers and nail makers at Halesowen Mill in the mid nineteenth century, and their richer cousins owned Rose and Rose gun barrel works at the same time and on an adjacent site. But I can't find any record of whether they helped one another.
 
From the Evening Despatch, May 1915, a report from the annual meeting of the gun trade, and the effect of the War on the Birmingham gun-making trade.

“Since the declaration of war demand for sporting guns had practically ceased, on the eve of what promised to be an exceptionally good shooting season, both in the country and for export, which was of more importance in its volume....In no previous war had there been so little employment for the gun maker, nor, indeed, at any other time. In the Crimean War, the American War, and the Franco-Prussian War nearly every maker turned his attention to the hand-made weapons which were acceptable at that period, and a rich harvest was reaped both by masters and men.”
 
From the Evening Despatch, May 1915, a report from the annual meeting of the gun trade, and the effect of the War on the Birmingham gun-making trade.

“Since the declaration of war demand for sporting guns had practically ceased, on the eve of what promised to be an exceptionally good shooting season, both in the country and for export, which was of more importance in its volume....In no previous war had there been so little employment for the gun maker, nor, indeed, at any other time. In the Crimean War, the American War, and the Franco-Prussian War nearly every maker turned his attention to the hand-made weapons which were acceptable at that period, and a rich harvest was reaped both by masters and men.”
......crafted gunsmiths made millions of hand crafted weapons .only to be destroyed after the war
 
In August 1914, the father of the Birmingham gun trade, Henry Jones, dies at the age of 102...

View attachment 140120
any more imput on this gun smith. Pedrocut?i cant find any
Far
 
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