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Grammar schools and comprehensives in Birmingham in the 50s and 60s.

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Bilberry Hill : Hello, I drove past there today (Thursday 5 aug. 21) and can confirm that all the windows and doors, are now boarded up with metal sheeting. Cheers......Steve
 
Astoness said:
i have found the last few posts very interesting to read but one thing does strike me and that is just how we all in some shape or other helped to keep the world turning...no one person is any better or worse than the next in terms of what jobs we do/did ..everyone plays a part in keeping the wheels of industry/economy turning and obviously some professions take longer than others to perfect..imagine if we all chose the same profession what a pickle we would be in...i have always admired people like eric who went into the motor trade who could no doubt strip down an engine blindfolded and put it back together again and here is me who cant even change a plug lol..one thing is for certain though and that is we all need each other

lyn
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Lyn, I am just rereading this thread. And to your point (at least with me) you never know where life takes you. I always want to be an engineer around tools, which lead to manufacturing to factory automation and then to managing a car body plant making bodies for BMW, Mercedes, Honda & Toyota, all premium vehicles. Then to an engine company right out of the blue into global operations. There are so many twists and turns that life gives us, you never really know until you get there!
This is a great thread with many introspective comments!
 
I am another who took the 11+ while still ten and, born in May, started at the Grammar School in September of that year aged 10yrs 4mths. I have often wondered if it worked to my advantage or in the opposite way, but no doubt I shall never know. Perhaps I found sport hard due to being younger but my inability on the cricket pitch had more to do with astigmatism than lack of maturity. Competitive sport came in an easier manner when, rather than a ball, a boat was involved.
 
I passed my 11+ at King’s Heath Junior School in 1961 – one of just 8 in my class of 40+. I selected KE Camp Hill, Moseley Grammar and King’s Heath Tec (quite new then). After interviews I started at Moseley Grammar in Sept 1961.

My story isn’t about school but what we owe to our parents and this is to try to soften the guilt I feel about taking them so much for granted at the time. I came from good, working-class parents – HGV driver and factory worker but they did teach me the work ethic and the responsibility to turn up at work each day on time.

After I was accepted by Moseley Grammar my parents said to me “This year we won’t be going on holiday for 2 weeks to our usual B&B in Bournemouth but we’ll be going for lots of day trips.” Sounded great to me and if I couldn’t swim in the sea, I could go to King’s Heath Baths on my free pass courtesy of Birmingham City Council (thank you).

Day 1 – we went to the school outfitter to buy my uniform – blazer, cap, tie, grey shorts, white shirts. Wad of cash handed over.

Day 2 – we went to the school sports outfitter to buy my sports kit – reversible rugby shirt, black shorts and boots, white PE kit. Another wad of cash handed over.

All items of clothing seemed to be quite large but I was assured that “I would grow into it in a few years.”

The rest of the time was days out at Warwick Castle, Stratford, ice cream in Henley, Sutton Park and a swim in Keepers Pool. Great fun and didn’t give a thought to missing 2 weeks at the seaside or what may parents had missed after 50 weeks of hard slog.

I had always known that my Mum had been denied a place at King’s Norton Grammar because her parents couldn’t afford the uniform (she was one of 9). Then, years later after my parents had died, I put the two stories together and the penny dropped that we had skipped the holiday because they couldn’t afford this AND my school uniform.

I still feel humbled by the sacrifices my parents made for me as I went on to get a professional qualification, a Masters and a good, financially secure life. I know all parents make sacrifices for their children and want them to “have what I couldn’t have” but I think modern parents should evaluate their priorities carefully.

I still feel conflicted about the grammar -v- comprehensive school debate because Moseley Grammar added so much to my later life.

Phew, got all that off my chest.
 
hi KRO and welcome...your post is one of the best i have read regarding what our parents sacrificed so that we could achieve our potential...i have written about this before on another thread but just quickly...i was the eldest of 6 children and really wanted to stay on at lozells girls school to take the cse exams also shorthand and typing so that i could work in an office dad worked in factories and was also a window cleaner..mom took in outwork...mom and dad allowed me to do this despite the fact that for that extra year i could have been working and bringing in much needed income... so it was i left school applied for 6 office jobs and was offered 5 of themo_O....i will always be grateful to our mom and dad bless them oh and we always had our usual weeks holiday in rhyl...

lyn
 
mikejee said:
I agree about not realising the sacrifices till later, though I am sure your parents felt they were rewarded by how well you did.
Lyn - I too had a large choie of jobs. If only present youngsters had the same choice
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its true isnt it mike the young one today wouldnt get 6 interviews never mind being offered 5 out of the 6...i wished i had thanked mom and dad while they were still with me but i guess its only when we ourselves grow older and wiser that we think about these things..i have no doubt my own 4 children will think the same when they are my age...its just the way it is

lyn
 
Like Lyn I have posted elsewhere about the fact my Mom, a stay at home mom, suddenly got a part time job. Only later did I think it must have been to pay for my grammar school uniform.
I too had uniform "to grow into" - sleeves to my knuckles on my blazer which were above my wrists when I left. :D
My parents then helped me through college as well and I tried to repay them in small ways (not enough) when I started teaching.
I will always be grateful to them.
 
Just like KRO it took time for me to grow in my uniform. 3 years later it fitted and it wasn’t worth buying another for the 5th and final year. I chuckle about it now but there was no fashion pressure that I noticed in those days except avid discussions about what Sandie Shaw or Cilla Black wore on Top of the Pops. How times have changed.
 
Another perspective on how uniform was paid for.

Dad had a reasonably well paid job but mum always worked. She believed she should be able to contribute to the home and or provide her own spending money. She saved via the Provident to get clothing for us. When it came to me and my brother going to Grammar schools, she used the Provident plus anything she could squeeze from my Dad to pay for it. Ordinarily he wouldn’t have contributed but given his absolute and top priority for us of getting a good education he paid for the large items like blazer, coats etc. There was however no way he’d have contributed towards sports equipment or craft/practical items. So really it was all down to my mum that we were able to take up Grammar places.

Viv.
 
I have the impression that all of the working class children who went to Grammar schools had parents who struggled to pay for our uniforms. I know my parents did as I was not the only member of my family who made it to grammar school. As the school I attended was over 3 miles from home Birmingham authority paid for the bus fare, thankfully. The city was very generous.
 
I'm afraid I must admit I never gave a thought to whether it was a struggle for my parents to pay for my uniform, it was never indicated.
The only consolation I have is that I hardly grew after the age of 12 so I was still wearing the same clothes, except for maybe a shirt or two, when I left at 16 and a half!
 
Perhaps things were a little easier for my family, in that there were only we twins, and both parents worked. There was always a car in the drive, even if some of the cars had been in quite a few other drives before Dad bought them! Because of my brother’s disability we made regular trips to London specialists which must have been a drain on the family resources and spent many hours in the Birmingham Children’s Hospital too, those murals in the big waiting room held my interest only for so long…

In terms of bus fares, Staffs County seem to have applied the same rules as Birmingham, our village being more than three miles from school, bus passes for the Midland Red were issued until I left the sixth form. These did not seem to be income related as one of the group had very exalted parents. Like previous correspondents, I am sure that I did not really understand or appreciate the efforts of my parents in raising my brother and me to manhood free from day to day worries about life.

Of more concern now seems to be that the distance between the barely scraping through and the comfortably off seems to be wider than ever, and widening.
 
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Spargone said:
I think that only applied if there were no other schools with the 3 mile zone, something that my parents didn't work out until I had been offered a place. The generosity of the City was really that of the rate and taxpayers!
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Absolutely my mom gave me bus money every day…..I always walked home and saved the money. When I was older I went on my bike but nothing from the city. We had no car, dad almost never worked and new clothes were a rarity until I got a part time job after school at 14.
 
Johnfromstaffs said:
Perhaps things were a little easier for my family, in that there were only we twins, and both parents worked. There was always a car in the drive, even if some of the cars had been in quite a few other drives before Dad bought them! Because of my brother’s disability we made regular trips to London specialists which must have been a drain on the family resources and spent many hours in the Birmingham Children’s Hospital too, those murals in the big waiting room held my interest only for so long…

In terms of bus fares, Staffs County seem to have applied the same rules as Birmingham, our village being more than three miles from school, bus passes for the Midland Red were issued until I left the sixth form. These did not seem to be income related as one of the group had very exalted parents. Like previous correspondents, I am sure that I did not really understand or appreciate the efforts of my parents in raising my brother and me to manhood free from day to day worries about life.

Of more concern now seems to be that the distance between the barely scraping through and the comfortably off seems now to be wider than ever, and widening.
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John, not only the distance between but the number of people. In another thread on workhouses there were some statistics from the 18 century, unfortunately this is not new. ( I-won’t say any more).
 
batmadviv said:
I have the impression that all of the working class children who went to Grammar schools had parents who struggled to pay for our uniforms.
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A lot of this is close to home. Mom was a single mom and goodness knows how she kitted me out for grammar school. My wife tells me that mom once shared with her that she had had some help from her father. Mom was an only child and her dad had been widowed at about sixty. So maybe this was true.
I recall we used to have bus fares paid with a cheque, can't recall if this was in advance or in arrears. In later years I had a bus pass that granted child fare post sixteen.
At about sixteen I had a new blazer and on the first day that I wore it I was cycling to school and managed to collide with the school gate. I was unhurt but my new jacket had the sleeve badly torn. To this day I remember feeling so guilty that this had happened, so I must have begun to appreciate mom's sacrifices.
 
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Madeleine said:
I am gathering recollections of sitting the 11+ examination in Birmingham in the 50s and 60s, for a essay about the introduction of comprehensive schools. Also of interest is the reasons why a place at a grammar school was not taken up. Do respondents feel that more grammar schools should be created and if so why?
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Walsall, like Birmingham. still has grammar schools. I went to one myself (all girls) and I think it taught people how to apply themselves to their work. Both my children attended grammar schools and whereas it suited my son, my daughter wasn't happy at hers. I think that, if you go to a single-sex secondary school, it is important to take part in a mixed-sex out-of-school activity! I am definitely in favour of more grammar schools! I think my junior school geared its lessons to passing the 11+ and my mother seemed to feel that not to pass it would be quite shameful. The first thing we did when we reached our new school was some tests to see which stream we would be in. When I passed the 11+, my grandmother gave me a wristwatch as a reward.
 
I failed the second part of my 11 plus, and so no Grammar school for me, and neither was the opportunity for a Comprehensive education simply because I lived the wrong side of Kingstanding Road.

I have written before my about my ability to read extremely well from a young age, but had no idea how to spell a majority of words, and even to this day I have to stop, and think how to break down certain words, because I could easily spell them how I hear or read them.
I was a baby boomer, but the youngest child with siblings 12, and 14 years older than me. Money always appeared tight, and only my Dad worked. I was born after Dad came home from the war, and he was 41, my Mom 40.

Really my Secondary School education was awful looking back. I was much to sensitive, but loved lessons, but the change from Junior School to Senior was for me nightmare until the time I left at 15, two months after my birthday, and started work first week in January having left in the December.
Had 6 jobs both factory, and office before I went into nursing at the age of 19.
However, I really only hit my prime education wise at 49/50 when I did a university conversion course from SEN to RGN.
Have I some regrets regarding education perhaps, but I have had a very full life.
I also have a couple of friends who are university educated, and have a number of extremely good degrees, but have not a ounce of common sense at times.
Like my husband said he’s build a house smart, not book smart .
We all need each other in someway.
 
Diane1947 said:
I failed the second part of my 11 plus, and so no Grammar school for me, and neither was the opportunity for a Comprehensive education simply because I lived the wrong side of Kingstanding Road.

I have written before my about my ability to read extremely well from a young age, but had no idea how to spell a majority of words, and even to this day I have to stop, and think how to break down certain words, because I could easily spell them how I hear or read them.
I was a baby boomer, but the youngest child with siblings 12, and 14 years older than me. Money always appeared tight, and only my Dad worked. I was born after Dad came home from the war, and he was 41, my Mom 40.

Really my Secondary School education was awful looking back. I was much to sensitive, but loved lessons, but the change from Junior School to Senior was for me nightmare until the time I left at 15, two months after my birthday, and started work first week in January having left in the December.
Had 6 jobs both factory, and office before I went into nursing at the age of 19.
However, I really only hit my prime education wise at 49/50 when I did a university conversion course from SEN to RGN.
Have I some regrets regarding education perhaps, but I have had a very full life.
I also have a couple of friends who are university educated, and have a number of extremely good degrees, but have not a ounce of common sense at times.
Like my husband said he’s build a house smart, not book smart .
We all need each other in someway.
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Diane, it sounds like my early years mirrored yours. In secondary school I did well! I slowed down but thanks to some good friends and future father in law became motivated and went to university at night after I was married.

As old old mentor of mine would say”it’s not how you start that counts it’s how you finish”.

I think you are finishing VERY STRONG!
 
Looking at the amount of 11 plus passes here it would appear I’m the only thicko here . Am I on the right forum , I’m inclined to ask myself ? Perhaps I’ll look for a forum Dorks United !
 
Dionysius//88 said:
Looking at the amount of 11 plus passes here it would appear I’m the only thicko here . Am I on the right forum , I’m inclined to ask myself ? Perhaps I’ll look for a forum Dorks United !
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One of the main reasons for the introduction of Comprehensive education was the way the grammar/secondary system led to 80% of children feeling like failures because the were not allocated a grammar school place. The places were very much dependant on numbers in your area for boys and girls. The place numbers were often disproportionate. Middle class/wealthier areas had more places!
I was in a small Catholic junior school in Sutton Coldfield. I was sent to a Catholic mixed Secondary Modern over the border into Birmingham where I was given the opportunity to take the 13+. I then transferred back to a mixed Grammar school in Sutton. I never settled into that school because I had missed so much. I didn't take exams there and it was only in my 20s that I took O levels and Teaching Qualification. I then did my degree part time in the evenings whilst teaching in my early 30s. It was the only way to climb the promotion ladder. I always felt that I was playing catch up and as a teacher, knew that the old system was flawed.
 
cba said:
One of the main reasons for the introduction of Comprehensive education was the way the grammar/secondary system led to 80% of children feeling like failures because the were not allocated a grammar school place. The places were very much dependant on numbers in your area for boys and girls. The place numbers were often disproportionate. Middle class/wealthier areas had more places!
I was in a small Catholic junior school in Sutton Coldfield. I was sent to a Catholic mixed Secondary Modern over the border into Birmingham where I was given the opportunity to take the 13+. I then transferred back to a mixed Grammar school in Sutton. I never settled into that school because I had missed so much. I didn't take exams there and it was only in my 20s that I took O levels and Teaching Qualification. I then did my degree part time in the evenings whilst teaching in my early 30s. It was the only way to climb the promotion ladder. I always felt that I was playing catch up and as a teacher, knew that the old system was flawed.
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Thanks for your reply alas it’s too late for me to try and turn it around .
 
Bob Davis said:
It is never to late, I found the best job I ever had in my sixties and carried on for another 27 years.
Bob
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Bob, absolutely! I made a job change at 64 and built a very nice career for almost ten yours (a long way from 27). it was because of recurring physical health issues that I stopped. I had a lot of fun, used all of my learned skills and met some very good new friends.
 
I don't think an education system was ever changed to suit the feelings of the children! The children already knew their 'place' through streaming in the Junior School and the position in class that was written on each annual report.

The Comprehensive system was and is political dogma, right or wrong. Having said that it worries me that advocates of the system always demanded that only comprehensives be allowed otherwise it wouldn't function properly. Do that and there is nothing to compare it with.

I suspect that most comprehensives were/are just 'super-schools' cloaking the grammar and secondary modern streams within!

It has been claimed that comprehensives offer a wider choice of subject. I can't comment. All I know is that my nephews, products of the comprehensive system, left with passes in a mish-mash of subjects that didn't fit them for any career or path to further education, something that would have never been allowed by a grammar school.

Both nephews did eventually get places at university but only by doing intermediate studies with the likes of the Open University.
 
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