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Grammar schools and comprehensives in Birmingham in the 50s and 60s.

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My recollection of secondary modern schools was that we were factory fodder.

I think it was unfortunate and no fault of any child that the country chose to implement a divisive educational system that denied opportunity, left potential unfulfilled and talent unused.
 
daithelife said:
Hi Farmer Dave, no I was not an only child> I had a brother some fifteen months younger but we were just about as different as it is possible to be. Educationally he saw the other extreme of education in those days being condemned (I am sure that is the correct verb to use) to life in the dreaded 'Secondary Modern', which meant he could not take any O levels and was expected to become yet more factory floor fodder. He was on fact enormously gifted with his hands becoming a silversmith and then as fashion changed he requalified as a true carpenter and worked making beautiful bespoke furniture for the very wealthy.
I really wonder how much talent we wasted back in those days. I admit freely that I was lucky that I matched the model the Government of the time seemed to desire whereas we ignored our skilled artisans of the future and condemned so many of them to a life of frustration as manafacturing inevitably went overseas for its cheap labour.
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Daithelife, the part about Not taking o levels is correct. I am not an only child with and older sister. I used day release and nights to get past that. My parents had no money and did not much care! Maurice's frustration is very understandable.
When I came to the US my first job was as a lab tech for an aviation company, there I meet two friends who were both degreed aeronautical engineers, they urged my to go to school at night. I finished my third technical degree married with two young children. And yes I did NOT pass the 11 plus and the system was bad but it comes down to choices. In hindsight the system (it seems to me) was designed to block.
My apologies for the rant, this was a very difficult time for me!
 
Interesting to read of all the theories of the effects of education systems. I suppose I was an only child for my formative years, I was pre-war, well almost and siblings were post-war. I went to grammar school they went to secondary modern. When I went to grammar school we lived on a council estate, mom and dad had split up, so mom was a "single-mom" goodness knows how she was able to afford all the uniform etc. By 1957, in sixth form I was the only class member who lived on a council estate. I left school and became an apprentice. My brothers had a uniform at their SM and my youngest brother did "O" levels, or would it have been GCSE by 1965, and became a GPO/BT apprentice. None of us went to university but none finished up "factory fodder". There is a claim that grammar school gave social mobility, whatever that is, but my siblings and I all finished up in not dissimilar occupations and demography. Perhaps grammar schools did cream off the better teachers to the detriment of the SM schools.
 
My school was a secondary modern, the government in 1949 decided that there should be a 'leaving exam' the teachers were taken by surprise and a quick scheme was arranged where all the leavers sat in the assembly hall and did the exam set.
Because of a previous government change that caught them by surprise, leaving age upped from 14 to 15 there was little or no planning for what the pupils were to do in the extra year so they just bumbled on through with whatever they could find.
I spent that last year in the science class assisting the science master setting up experiments and exhibits, even did the stocktake of the storeroom.
We never thought of ourselves as factory fodder we had freedom of choice when we left, the science master said he would get me a job at Birmingham University as a lab technician but I'd made my mind up that I wanted to be motor mechanic so went straight into the garage trade.
After I left school it was decided by someone that it would be a good idea to change the names of all the schools to something more posh (as my mother said) Peckham Road became Kings Rise, Dulwich Road and Cranbourne road also had new names beginning with Kings , can't remember the new names for those.
 
Eric mentions the year of 1949. Here is part of an article from the Birmingham Gazette of February 1948, concerning education in Birmingham's Primary and Secondary schools.(mentions raising of school leaving age).

It goes on to suggest answers.
C9883653-9E57-4B02-B001-4F0DF99DC2DA.jpeg
 
Pedrocut said:
Eric mentions the year of 1949. Here is part of an article from the Birmingham Gazette of February 1948, concerning education in Birmingham's Primary and Secondary schools.(mentions raising of school leaving age).

It goes on to suggest answers.
View attachment 157339
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Even by 1958 I was still in a class of 48 when we took our 11+. This was the post war era when there had been a baby boom. There was a housing problem too. Education at that time was simply a 'sifting' process to fuel the economy. Exam pass marks shifted about in order that the needed number of people got through to the next tier. Those of us from poorer backgrounds simply negotiated our own way through. What worked to our benefit was post school education and grants. The challenge now is to create a system that can meet individual potential. A new model of education in the digital age.
 
pjmburns said:
Still 'O' levels in 1965.
GCSEs came after I started teaching which means after 1975.
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Birmingham Post, October 1966 describes an exhibition to be opened showing items produced under exam conditions, by children most of whom were in Midland secondary modern schools.

51A19212-E17C-452C-93A0-E43D846EA83E.jpeg380D4E0F-C676-4A40-B126-DA9AD894C521.jpeg
 
i have found the last few posts very interesting to read but one thing does strike me and that is just how we all in some shape or other helped to keep the world turning...no one person is any better or worse than the next in terms of what jobs we do/did ..everyone plays a part in keeping the wheels of industry/economy turning and obviously some professions take longer than others to perfect..imagine if we all chose the same profession what a pickle we would be in...i have always admired people like eric who went into the motor trade who could no doubt strip down an engine blindfolded and put it back together again and here is me who cant even change a plug lol..one thing is for certain though and that is we all need each other

lyn
 
Tinpot said:
Education at that time was simply a 'sifting' process to fuel the economy. Exam pass marks shifted about in order that the needed number of people got through to the next tier.
Click to expand...

As still occurs. Exam marks are still "adjusted" to what the authorities think the range is what it should be, which , I think, is usually a slow steady increase in passes so that the government policies look good. I know that, a few years ago , when I told a friend, who had just retired teaching, that everyone was surprised that I managed to scrape through GCE French O level, he said today that would have been a reasonable pass
 
The main difference in appreciation I found Lyn was the 'white collar' 'blue collar' trades/professions.

An example going back quite a while was a sign outside a jobs agency in Bristol "Wanted office secretaries £5.50 per hour." "Wanted HGV drivers £3.80 per hour. I couldn't see how a girl sitting at a typewriter could possibly be worth more than a man (or woman) driving a thirty ton truck. :)
 
mikejee said:
As still occurs. Exam marks are still "adjusted" to what the authorities think the range is what it should be, which , I think, is usually a slow steady increase in passes so that the government policies look good. I know that, a few years ago , when I told a friend, who had just retired teaching, that everyone was surprised that I managed to scrape through GCE French O level, he said today that would have been a reasonable pass
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Now they blame an algorithm.
 
My class size from 1947 to 1952 at Moseley Grammar was consistently 31 and I think the hotch-potch class in 1953 was 30. When I went into the RAF in 1955. my mate was a guy called Alan who had been allowed to complete his Spanish and Portuguese degree at uni before doing his national service. Due to teacher shortage he did several months in one of the poorer Birmingham secondary moderns and his experiece was an eye-opener to both of us. He said that you would start off on a Monday with a very unruly class and until Thursday you spent the days trying to maintain order and taking bicycle chains and knives from the pupils and by Friday you were at the point where you were of being able to teach them something.

By the following Monday (after a weekend without discipline) you were back to Square one and that cycle was repeated throught the whole time he was there. He found it very depressing, but he was just waiting for his National Service to begin.

Maurice :cool:
 
Astoness said:
i have found the last few posts very interesting to read but one thing does strike me and that is just how we all in some shape or other helped to keep the world turning...no one person is any better or worse than the next in terms of what jobs we do/did ..everyone plays a part in keeping the wheels of industry/economy turning and obviously some professions take longer than others to perfect..imagine if we all chose the same profession what a pickle we would be in...i have always admired people like eric who went into the motor trade who could no doubt strip down an engine blindfolded and put it back together again and here is me who cant even change a plug lol..one thing is for certain though and that is we all need each other

lyn
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“everyone plays a part in keeping the wheels of industry/economy turning...”

This has been illustrated during the pandemic.
 
Eric Gibson said:
The main difference in appreciation I found Lyn was the 'white collar' 'blue collar' trades/professions.

An example going back quite a while was a sign outside a jobs agency in Bristol "Wanted office secretaries £5.50 per hour." "Wanted HGV drivers £3.80 per hour. I couldn't see how a girl sitting at a typewriter could possibly be worth more than a man (or woman) driving a thirty ton truck. :)
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point taken eric and i would have been one of those girls :D ..my first office job after leaving school in 71 paid £7. 10p a week...at that time i thought i was minted...i applied for 6 jobs and got offered 5 of them..no chance of that happening these days though

lyn

lyn
 
How wonderful that a few recollections seemed to have sparked so much debate and shown how we survived it all. Yes, the world and future education needs were complex. Yes, politicians couldn't avoid interfering. Yes, mistakes were made. Yes, there were not enough teachers or schools of a good enough calibre. Yet we not only survived we flourished.

My parents and grandparents generation had twice fought for our freedom and we owe them a great deal. Yet their bravery and sacrifices had consumed entirely the wealth of what less than half a century before had been the greatest and wealthiest empire this world had ever known. Those days we knew as youngsters growing up in immediate aftermath of World War Two was arguably a potentially grim and cheerless place. Yet we and the kids of the "Baby Boom" not only survived but thrived to become the most creative and successful generation of all. Despite the lack of resources we had freedom in a way denied our forebears.

Eric and Lyn (Astoness) between them have highlighted the difference. The schools may have been awful or more rarely brilliant, the teaching generally of a low standard because primarily of political interference, but somehow we overcame that. We had freedom to choose and enough of us chose to reject the old ways and we went on to improve the world. Maybe Teddy Boys, Mods and Rockers et al were a wrong move but our generation moved the goal posts and helped create the world we have today.

I just wonder if the current generation have that drive. Have we made it too easy for them? Does a computer game, no matter how complex prepare yo as well as a bombed out house left to decay and become the meeting place for kids?
 
mikejee said:
As still occurs. Exam marks are still "adjusted" to what the authorities think the range is what it should be, which , I think, is usually a slow steady increase in passes so that the government policies look good. I know that, a few years ago , when I told a friend, who had just retired teaching, that everyone was surprised that I managed to scrape through GCE French O level, he said today that would have been a reasonable pass
Click to expand...
I feel tempted to ask - "what is a pass"? As a teacher on results day I have been hugged by someone who achieved a D grade in maths when a C and above was accepted as a pass - why the delight? It meant a place on the art course so desired was now available.
I have also dried the tears of someone who got a B grade - why? The reason an A was needed to study medicine.
I always used to say that "a pass" was getting what you needed for the future.
I had better stop now as this post is going off topic. Although it applies equally to grammar, secondary mod or comprehensive schools.
 
daithelife said:
How wonderful that a few recollections seemed to have sparked so much debate and shown how we survived it all. Yes, the world and future education needs were complex. Yes, politicians couldn't avoid interfering. Yes, mistakes were made. Yes, there were not enough teachers or schools of a good enough calibre. Yet we not only survived we flourished.

My parents and grandparents generation had twice fought for our freedom and we owe them a great deal. Yet their bravery and sacrifices had consumed entirely the wealth of what less than half a century before had been the greatest and wealthiest empire this world had ever known. Those days we knew as youngsters growing up in immediate aftermath of World War Two was arguably a potentially grim and cheerless place. Yet we and the kids of the "Baby Boom" not only survived but thrived to become the most creative and successful generation of all. Despite the lack of resources we had freedom in a way denied our forebears.

Eric and Lyn (Astoness) between them have highlighted the difference. The schools may have been awful or more rarely brilliant, the teaching generally of a low standard because primarily of political interference, but somehow we overcame that. We had freedom to choose and enough of us chose to reject the old ways and we went on to improve the world. Maybe Teddy Boys, Mods and Rockers et al were a wrong move but our generation moved the goal posts and helped create the world we have today.

I just wonder if the current generation have that drive. Have we made it too easy for them? Does a computer game, no matter how complex prepare yo as well as a bombed out house left to decay and become the meeting place for kids?
Click to expand...
to be honest i dont think its us that may have made things easier for the current generation its more that the world is so different now to when we were growing up...times move on having said that i still would not change my childhood for anything and maybe in another 60 years time the kids of today will be saying the same thing...

lyn
 
mikejee said:
As still occurs. Exam marks are still "adjusted" to what the authorities think the range is what it should be, which , I think, is usually a slow steady increase in passes so that the government policies look good. I know that, a few years ago , when I told a friend, who had just retired teaching, that everyone was surprised that I managed to scrape through GCE French O level, he said today that would have been a reasonable pass
Click to expand...
Exactly Mike, in the US it’s called marking on the curve. If the exam is too strong and the grades are low the pass fail requirements are shifted down.
 
pjmburns said:
I feel tempted to ask - "what is a pass"? As a teacher on results day I have been hugged by someone who achieved a D grade in maths when a C and above was accepted as a pass - why the delight? It meant a place on the art course so desired was now available.
I have also dried the tears of someone who got a B grade - why? The reason an A was needed to study medicine.
I always used to say that "a pass" was getting what you needed for the future.
I had better stop now as this post is going off topic. Although it applies equally to grammar, secondary mod or comprehensive schools.
Click to expand...
My experience of results days is the same. I have been so proud of those who have worked hard for their grades, whatever they were. One child's D can mean so much more than an easily achieved A for another.
 
Tau WOW! this has got deep and very interesting, there was a difference between secondary modern schools and grammar schools, what they taught and how they taught it. I went BVGS and that was all university èducated teachers who wore gowns and were strong disciplinarians, where the classics ruled as did music and ŕugby, where the sports master was a county cricketer and the boys were from the three classes. I remember my mother embroidering the bishops mitreon to a black blazer bought from a shop in Dale End, because mum and dad could not afford the recommended blazer from the outfitters on Sutton parade and I was not alone. Top dog at Green Lanes,I struggled at BVGS, left on the last day of the fifth year term and started at Dunlop the following Monday. Now all these years later, I realise that I learned a lot and how lucky I was that I passed the eleven plus. I first noticed when I heard my sons calling their teachers by their first name and lately in the job I have just retired from, how little the modern child knows in some circumstances. The winner was I thought the Midlands in Birmingham.

Bpb
 
Bob Davis said:
Tau WOW! this has got deep and very interesting, there was a difference between secondary modern schools and grammar schools, what they taught and how they taught it. I went BVGS and that was all university èducated teachers who wore gowns and were strong disciplinarians, where the classics ruled as did music and ŕugby, where the sports master was a county cricketer and the boys were from the three classes. I remember my mother embroidering the bishops mitreon to a black blazer bought from a shop in Dale End, because mum and dad could not afford the recommended blazer from the outfitters on Sutton parade and I was not alone. Top dog at Green Lanes,I struggled at BVGS, left on the last day of the fifth year term and started at Dunlop the following Monday. Now all these years later, I realise that I learned a lot and how lucky I was that I passed the eleven plus. I first noticed when I heard my sons calling their teachers by their first name and lately in the job I have just retired from, how little the modern child knows in some circumstances. The winner was I thought the Midlands in Birmingham.

Bpb
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Very well said!
 
Bob Davis said:
Tau WOW! this has got deep and very interesting, there was a difference between secondary modern schools and grammar schools, what they taught and how they taught it. I went BVGS and that was all university èducated teachers who wore gowns and were strong disciplinarians, where the classics ruled as did music and ŕugby, where the sports master was a county cricketer and the boys were from the three classes. I remember my mother embroidering the bishops mitreon to a black blazer bought from a shop in Dale End, because mum and dad could not afford the recommended blazer from the outfitters on Sutton parade and I was not alone. Top dog at Green Lanes,I struggled at BVGS, left on the last day of the fifth year term and started at Dunlop the following Monday. Now all these years later, I realise that I learned a lot and how lucky I was that I passed the eleven plus. I first noticed when I heard my sons calling their teachers by their first name and lately in the job I have just retired from, how little the modern child knows in some circumstances. The winner was I thought the Midlands in Birmingham.

Bpb
Click to expand...
Sorry did not really explain the last sentence, late at night and to much O'Donnell Moonshine, I had indicated in front of a 21 year old and a 17 year old that I was away up the Midlands for the weekend. The 17 year old asked where the Midlands were and that was the 21 year old reply that he knew that the Midlands was a city in Birmingham
Bob
 
Bob Davis said:
Sorry did not really explain the last sentence, late at night and to much O'Donnell Moonshine, I had indicated in front of a 21 year old and a 17 year old that I was away up the Midlands for the weekend. The 17 year old asked where the Midlands were and that was the 21 year old reply that he knew that the Midlands was a city in Birmingham
Bob
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PS Bob: I live in Moonshine county and I have just checked they sell O'Donnell here so it must be pretty good. Accordingly I have decided to do a “home study test”
Thanks for the referral!
 
I sat my 11+ in 1962 when I was just ten. Somehow to my, and everyone else's, surprise I managed to pass. As I attended a Catholic junior school in Aston it was assumed I would be going to St Phillips grammar school the following September. However, there were no available places there so eventually I was allocated a space in the grammar stream (yes there was such a thing) at Great Barr Comprehensive, not the easiest place to get to from Aston. I enjoyed my time there as the comprehensive system allowed you to rise or fall to your appropriate level. Whilst I didn't do as well as expected in my GCE/CSE exams, I spent the majority of my working life in the computer industry, so not attending a grammar school worked out ok in the end.
 
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