-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team -
HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
we are now using a backup solution
GERMAN/ITALIAN POWs IN BIRMINGHAM
- Thread starter anthea
- Start date
The winter of 1947, the second one of peace, was a dreadful one as older forum members will remember. Temperatures barely climbed over freezing between late January and early March and easterly winds brought many blizzards with them. For some children this was the source of great entertainment, such as these three schoolboys - who have appeared in this forum before - enjoying the icy conditions on the Chester Road (the A452) in Streetly.
But as the winter progressed the snow and ice on that road, initially so wonderful for tobogganing, deteriorated into a dirty, rutted surface of compacted ice and grit, as hard as rock. Eventually a squad of German POWs was drafted in to deal with it and they inched their way from the Parson & Clerk onward in the direction of the Hardwick Arms and perhaps even beyond. I watched them from the front window of our house as they toiled away in the road outside. They were the survivors of the Afrika Corps, or the long, slow withdrawal up the Italian peninsula or the retreat through France and the Low Countries. But now they were here outside our house, dressed in drab clothing, dark donkey jackets with POW stencilled on the back and many of them still wearing their Wehrmacht soft caps. One group patiently hacked away at the hard shell on the road with their pickaxes whilst the other shovelled the debris onto an accompanying lorry. Dreams of conquest and the heady days of summer 1940 with all its glory and swagger must have been a distant memory and by now, for most of them, their captivity was being measured in years. A few of them would elect to stay in this country but eventually most would go home, to pick up their lives in still ruined cities and within sundered families.
There was never any contact with them. My mother would hurry me past whilst my own attitude was always one of mild curiosity mixed with a modest, lingering apprehension - after all it was not so long ago that I had been firmly convinced that the aim of every single German was to arrange my personal demise by bomb, gas or bullet. I don't know what my parents' attitude would have been. Perhaps by then it would have been softening a little - but the indignation and anger of having been pitchforked into war by Germany for the second time in their lives, then all the fear and finally in early 1945 the outrage and hatred which erupted when the details of the camps, particularly Bergen-Belsen, were revealed would linger for a long time and perhaps leave its traces for the remainder of their lives. My father once said that the Germans were always either at your throat or at your feet. These fellows labouring away a few yards from our front door were definitely at our feet and it would have been difficult not to feel sympathy for them as individuals, the vast majority of them probably deserving our goodwill.
Of all the German and Italian prisoners I saw from time to time I only ever identified one as a separate human being. This was not in Birmingham but on a farm in South Devon where we had our first postwar holiday in August 1945. "Hans" was a sunburnt, blond-haired fellow who had been allocated to the farm and I regularly saw him going about his various duties. Again, for me, mild curiosity but little more and I don't think I ever spoke to him. During the following winter the "Daily Mail" told us what later happened. The story was that the lonely Hans had developed some sort of fondness for the farmer's daughter and when that became obvious he had been warned off by her two brothers, no doubt in fairly uncertain terms. Hans in due course went into one of the old barns, set it on fire, sat down in a corner and used a shotgun on himself. Revenge? Loneliness? Hopelessness? Just one further individual tragedy after so many others.
Chris
But as the winter progressed the snow and ice on that road, initially so wonderful for tobogganing, deteriorated into a dirty, rutted surface of compacted ice and grit, as hard as rock. Eventually a squad of German POWs was drafted in to deal with it and they inched their way from the Parson & Clerk onward in the direction of the Hardwick Arms and perhaps even beyond. I watched them from the front window of our house as they toiled away in the road outside. They were the survivors of the Afrika Corps, or the long, slow withdrawal up the Italian peninsula or the retreat through France and the Low Countries. But now they were here outside our house, dressed in drab clothing, dark donkey jackets with POW stencilled on the back and many of them still wearing their Wehrmacht soft caps. One group patiently hacked away at the hard shell on the road with their pickaxes whilst the other shovelled the debris onto an accompanying lorry. Dreams of conquest and the heady days of summer 1940 with all its glory and swagger must have been a distant memory and by now, for most of them, their captivity was being measured in years. A few of them would elect to stay in this country but eventually most would go home, to pick up their lives in still ruined cities and within sundered families.
There was never any contact with them. My mother would hurry me past whilst my own attitude was always one of mild curiosity mixed with a modest, lingering apprehension - after all it was not so long ago that I had been firmly convinced that the aim of every single German was to arrange my personal demise by bomb, gas or bullet. I don't know what my parents' attitude would have been. Perhaps by then it would have been softening a little - but the indignation and anger of having been pitchforked into war by Germany for the second time in their lives, then all the fear and finally in early 1945 the outrage and hatred which erupted when the details of the camps, particularly Bergen-Belsen, were revealed would linger for a long time and perhaps leave its traces for the remainder of their lives. My father once said that the Germans were always either at your throat or at your feet. These fellows labouring away a few yards from our front door were definitely at our feet and it would have been difficult not to feel sympathy for them as individuals, the vast majority of them probably deserving our goodwill.
Of all the German and Italian prisoners I saw from time to time I only ever identified one as a separate human being. This was not in Birmingham but on a farm in South Devon where we had our first postwar holiday in August 1945. "Hans" was a sunburnt, blond-haired fellow who had been allocated to the farm and I regularly saw him going about his various duties. Again, for me, mild curiosity but little more and I don't think I ever spoke to him. During the following winter the "Daily Mail" told us what later happened. The story was that the lonely Hans had developed some sort of fondness for the farmer's daughter and when that became obvious he had been warned off by her two brothers, no doubt in fairly uncertain terms. Hans in due course went into one of the old barns, set it on fire, sat down in a corner and used a shotgun on himself. Revenge? Loneliness? Hopelessness? Just one further individual tragedy after so many others.
Chris
B
Beryl M
Guest
Chris - You paint an interesting picture - and that of a human tragedy.
It reminds me of a story in reverse. My husband's elder vrother Andrew was in a German prison camp. He became the camps interpreter - had learnt to speak German in school so he was allowed privliges outside the camp Though engaged to a girl in Scotland, he fell in love with a German farm girl and was torn - but he didn't marry her, he returned home end married the girl to which he was engaged. . .
It reminds me of a story in reverse. My husband's elder vrother Andrew was in a German prison camp. He became the camps interpreter - had learnt to speak German in school so he was allowed privliges outside the camp Though engaged to a girl in Scotland, he fell in love with a German farm girl and was torn - but he didn't marry her, he returned home end married the girl to which he was engaged. . .
paul stacey
master brummie
I believe that there were POW's in the Bartley green, Halesowen area.Paul
Great posts above - found all sorts of information - thank you.
Sutton Park pow camp replaced the civilian internment camp there. There were several camps in Birmingham as can be seen above, they were all working sub-camps of larger ones. POWs received the same ration as soldiers - if they worked, otherwise reduced rations.
There was also a pow camp in Swanshurst Park - there's a brief reference to it in the House of Commons -
“Mr. H. Usborne asked the Secretary of State for War when Swanshurst Park, Birmingham, will be completely derequisitioned and entirely available again as a recreation ground for the public.
Mr. Tomlinson - …..It was recently loaned by the War Department to the Ministry of Works to re-accommodate a working party of prisoners of war who were occupying requisitioned dwelling houses in Birmingham. If suitable alternative accommodation becomes available the prisoners will be moved and the property derequisitioned.” (House of Commons, 14 February 1946, Vol 419)
List of camps on - ww2pow.uk
Sutton Park pow camp replaced the civilian internment camp there. There were several camps in Birmingham as can be seen above, they were all working sub-camps of larger ones. POWs received the same ration as soldiers - if they worked, otherwise reduced rations.
There was also a pow camp in Swanshurst Park - there's a brief reference to it in the House of Commons -
“Mr. H. Usborne asked the Secretary of State for War when Swanshurst Park, Birmingham, will be completely derequisitioned and entirely available again as a recreation ground for the public.
Mr. Tomlinson - …..It was recently loaned by the War Department to the Ministry of Works to re-accommodate a working party of prisoners of war who were occupying requisitioned dwelling houses in Birmingham. If suitable alternative accommodation becomes available the prisoners will be moved and the property derequisitioned.” (House of Commons, 14 February 1946, Vol 419)
List of camps on - ww2pow.uk
Martinoverdington
New Member
There is a large cemetery Oscott college way and it has, unfortunately quite a high number of graves of German and Italian POWs I seem to remember.
H. Grainger Clemson
Brummie Blood
Thank you for this interesting thread.
My grandparents befriended prisoners of war in 1946/7. They visited the house and my grandfather took them to Villa Park to watch the football. I have a photograph of them in front of the family home in their standard prisoner clothing with "P" and "W" on the trousers. They kept in touch for some time after the prisoners were allowed to return to Germany.
I would love to know *how* this was arranged in the first place. Was there a Birmingham committee who paired up local residents with prisoners? Surely the prisoners must have had permission to leave the camps so there must have been some kind of official arrangement. (I can't imagine my grandfather just kidnapping them from the roadside, although he might have done..?!)
Any information gratefully received
My grandparents befriended prisoners of war in 1946/7. They visited the house and my grandfather took them to Villa Park to watch the football. I have a photograph of them in front of the family home in their standard prisoner clothing with "P" and "W" on the trousers. They kept in touch for some time after the prisoners were allowed to return to Germany.
I would love to know *how* this was arranged in the first place. Was there a Birmingham committee who paired up local residents with prisoners? Surely the prisoners must have had permission to leave the camps so there must have been some kind of official arrangement. (I can't imagine my grandfather just kidnapping them from the roadside, although he might have done..?!)
Any information gratefully received
Lloyd
master brummie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_United_Kingdom refers to what happened to axis PoWs during and after WW2, including that Italian PoWs were repatriated first, as their country had 'changed sides' during the conflict.
Particular to your question is the quote "Restrictions on the prisoners were, by late 1947, almost completely removed. The men were allowed to leave the camp unescorted and walk around the surrounding district. They could now mix with civilians; visit cafés and cinemas; and attend church services. Many met local women, though there was initially a ban on 'romantic liaisons': but once the ban was lifted, 796 marriages between German POWs and British women took place immediately. Many more would follow."
Also "Once repatriation of the German prisoners had commenced, most of the men had been returned to Germany by the latter half of 1948. Even at this late stage, Britain was still desperately short of agricultural workers while, at the same time, a significant number of the POWs were reluctant to return to Germany. (Reasons included their original home now being within the Soviet sector; being in a relationship with a British woman; and adverse reactions to the atrocities committed by the Nazis). Britain introduced a scheme under which men could be discharged from their prisoner status and could apply to stay on as civilian workers. About 30,000 men asked to join the scheme and just under 25,000 were accepted."
Particular to your question is the quote "Restrictions on the prisoners were, by late 1947, almost completely removed. The men were allowed to leave the camp unescorted and walk around the surrounding district. They could now mix with civilians; visit cafés and cinemas; and attend church services. Many met local women, though there was initially a ban on 'romantic liaisons': but once the ban was lifted, 796 marriages between German POWs and British women took place immediately. Many more would follow."
Also "Once repatriation of the German prisoners had commenced, most of the men had been returned to Germany by the latter half of 1948. Even at this late stage, Britain was still desperately short of agricultural workers while, at the same time, a significant number of the POWs were reluctant to return to Germany. (Reasons included their original home now being within the Soviet sector; being in a relationship with a British woman; and adverse reactions to the atrocities committed by the Nazis). Britain introduced a scheme under which men could be discharged from their prisoner status and could apply to stay on as civilian workers. About 30,000 men asked to join the scheme and just under 25,000 were accepted."
Lloyd
master brummie
I think that must have been the general feeling of those who stayed. I allso think it shows the way PoWs were treated here, when they learned of the way Axis powers treated their internees.
H. Grainger Clemson
Brummie Blood
Thanks for the replies. Here is the photograph. We think they were from Schwäbisch Hall (which would have been the American zone in Germany) and/or Mönchengladbach (which would have been in the British zone).
