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George Kynoch (1834-1891)

G

george donovan

Guest
In these my reminiscence years I have undertaken the research project of GEORGE KYNOCH who once had a explosives factory here on the Essex marshes close to where I now live. His name has also been given to an elderly peoples homes complex named KYNOCH COURT. I am looking to glean any infomation on the man himself as well as the industry he began. Along with this, Mrs Mcnab a long standing employee deserves some research consideration. Can anyone help please Please contact me by [email protected]--- subject title KYNOCH Many Thanks
 

Pomgolian

Kiwi Brummie Admin' Team
Just put KYNOCH in the search at the top of the page and you will find what you need there.

There are various threads that mention some aspect of the firm.

Pom
 

ChrisM

Super Moderator
Staff member
George Kynoch in Essex

George....

Welcome to the forum.

The main published source of information on George Kynoch is the following book:
"Under Five Flags" published in 1962 by The Kynoch Press

It’s fairly rare but does crop up on eBay occasionally. And I assume it will be held in the Birmingham Reference library, if not elsewhere.

You may well know all about this already, and also be aware of the online potted history of Kynoch’s industrial activities, based in part on that book, which is mentioned in the most recent thread on this subject in this forum.


Chris
 
G

george donovan

Guest
George Kynoch

Thanks for the responses---I have exhausted the obvious, Net etc--- I was looking perhaps for unbeknown knowledge, photographs, literature perhaps.For instance. He was on his own in South Africa when he died, Why?
 

ChrisM

Super Moderator
Staff member
"He was on his own in South Africa when he died, Why?"

Not wholly clear, but when his relationship with the Company came to a bitter end he was ailing. He was also being pursued for a considerable sum of money by the new Board. So he set off for South Africa, presumably in search of warmth for his health and perhaps also for some peace and quiet, away from his troubles and disappointment. It is of course possible that his marriage was not all that satisfactory either. (I once heard, many years ago, comment that he had always been “a bit of a lad” as far as the fairer sex was concerned - but that could have just been a scurrilous rumour). Nothing appears to be documented about his domestic situation and something like that probably would never be anyway. It might well be that he undertook the journey with every hope, on his part and that of his wife, that he would return home as and when his health recovered.

What does seem certain is that he went alone, having abandoned his Aston constituents, and never returned. He was dead within 14 months. I’m not sure if you have seen “Under Five Flags” but the comment there is that he died in self-imposed exile and comparative poverty in Johannesburg and that “he never achieved the long-promised reunion with his family, even to attend the marriage of his only child Gertrude”. It was a sad end to a remarkable man.

If there any other snippets of information about him at that time, they are as likely to appear in this forum as anywhere. Whether anything further is held in the Birmingham Reference Library, I'm unfortunately unsure.

Chris
 

Di.Poppitt

master brummie
This post in in the wrong section, and Rod will have to move it, but as I am unsure where it will be moved to, I will reply here.

According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, George had separated from his wife Helen by the time he left for SA.

He spent a lot of time away from the company when he became MP for Aston and also, close to our hearts - well some of us - he became chairman of Aston Villa, which lead to his being asked to resign from the company.
 
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ChrisM

Super Moderator
Staff member
A little more information on George Kynoch’s trip to South Africa which you may possibly have already, George.

His obituary in "The Times" of March 2nd 1891 states that he left Birmingham for the Transvaal at the end of 1888. His constituents in Aston Manor who had elected him in 1886 were left without an M.P. and efforts by the local Conservative Association to persuade him to return and take up his duties were unsuccessful. It appears that in November 1888, however, and prior to his departure, George Kynoch had announced his retirement from politics "on account of ill-health" and it was stated that he would apply for the "Chiltern Hundreds", the formality by which M.P.s resigned their office. It appears that this procedure was never carried through and he remained M.P. for the constituency up to his death.

It was stated that he had business interests in the Transvaal, in particular in several gold mines. He set up as a General Merchant in Johannesburg. He was also said to have "enjoyed certain privileges from the Dutch Government with regard to the manufacture of gunpowder and ammunition. At the time of his death, however, those privileges had lapsed and Mr. Kynoch is said to have died in narrow circumstances". His death was due to cancer.

One must assume that his marriage had broken down by that stage. His widow, Helen, married William Thomas Lancaster of Brighton on 27th July 1895.

Chris
 
G

george donovan

Guest
Kynoch

The book I have ' The Story of IMI' states in its early pages:
"In 1872, one of Kynochs original twelve girl employees, who had joined as a tewlve year old and was now twenty-two was given charge of the cap department. This woman, Mrs. Mcnab, was to become a ledgendary figure in the next seventy five years, temporarily relinquishing her duties only briefly when each of her children were born" ( She is said to have had fourteen in total)
I have tracked this/these familes through the census's from 1851 to 1901---and it all makes sense---except in the case of the 1871. THERE IS NO TRACE OF THE FAMILES RECORDED IN THIS EITHER AS DOOLEY (Her maiden name) or McNAB, YET SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN TWENTY-ONE AND IN THE EMPLOYMENT AT KYNOCHS---so the book says. Can anyone offer an explanation for this !!!
 
G

george donovan

Guest
Kynochs

Sorry---Fairly new to the site Can you explain PM ( Personal message) I assume and how do I do that
 
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ChrisM

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mrs Mcnab

"She is said to have had fourteen in total"

George......My source suggests seven sons and a daughter. But they may have been surviving children only.

The possible reasons for her absence in the 1871 will no doubt be suggested by someone more experienced in genealogical research than I. What's fairly certain, though, is that she was not away somewhere on a company Health & Safety course on that date!

PM: Click "Private Messages", then "Send new Message" on the LH list, insert addressee's User Name, insert title, draft your message, Preview to check, Send.

Chris
 
G

george donovan

Guest
Kynochs

Mrs McNab---In the early pages of the book "Under Five Flags" it states that the said lady had seven sons and one daughter.
In a later edited version of the same book (1902) it states she had fourteen children in total.

The 1881 Census registers two--William aged 8 years and James aged 1 year
The 1891 shows William, James, Hugh aged 7, and Duncan aged 6
The 1901 shows James, Duncan, Helen aged 12. Mrs McNab being aged 51 years at this time.

Why the contradiction. Any explanation for all this !!!!!!
 

ChrisM

Super Moderator
Staff member
In a later edited version of the same book (1902) it states she had fourteen children in total.
Not at all clear about your comment, George, unless 1902 is a typo and should have been 1962. "Under Five Flags" was definitely a 1962 book and original, published as far as I am aware in one edition only. I'm also unaware of earlier histories but would be very interested to hear that they exist.

If indeed the comment about 14 children is in the 1962 book, could you tell me the page please? The reference to eight children comes from P.19 where it quotes an earlier statement: "She was never once away from work except on those occasions when it was necessary in order that her fine family of seven sons and one daughter might be ushered safely and satisfactorily into the world".

I'm sure that a genealogical expert on this forum will be able to offer ideas as to why children appear or don't appear in particular census returns. But I suppose one can guess about some possibilities particularly as Mrs. McNab must have had her hands very full doing a full time job of remarkable responsibilty - care by relatives and so on, perhaps.

Chris
 

Di.Poppitt

master brummie
The census returns are pretty normal for family life I guess. Between 1881 and 1891 Hugh and Duncan were born, and in 1901 William and possibly James are married, Helen appears and could have been visiting granny in 1891 and Hugh at 17 was almost certainly living with his employer. :)

There were of course deaths of children, there was a higher death rate than today.

Mrs M has called a halt at age 51 to her childbearing years.
:)

I just looked for Helen and Hugh - 1891 Hellen shown as Ellen staying at Finchley Road Handsworth age 2, visitor, born Birmingham, with family called Baker.

1901 Hugh is at Brompton Barracks in Kent, he is a Sapper, Royal Engineers and he was born - Witton Birmingham.

1901 WIlliam is married living Cheshire Road, Erdington, his mom would have been proud of him as he is manager at ammunition works, born Witton.
 
G

george donovan

Guest
Kynochs

Hello Everyone---Thanks for all your responses. Sorry for the misunderstanding re. Mrs. McNab.
I have recently been sent a book via IMI "The World of Engineering---The Story of IMI 1862-2001" the foreword by the Chairman Gary Allen reading'---i felt that we needed not only an update but a comprehensive treatment, placing IMIs history---particually since 1962 when the present company was formed--in the context of economic circumstances"
This was my meaning in my previous submission when I said an updated version of Under Five Flags, and it is in this new book that the fourteen children are credited to Mrs. McNab---hence my query--'why the contradiction'

The further enlightenment through Di was certainly of interest. Im looking at the possibility of the 1871 Census absence being that they were in America, for in the 1881 it shows that Mrs McNabs two brothers aged 22 ( who could be twins) were born in New York! Incidently, Mrs. McNab comes about through curiosity rather than family interest on my part.

Interestingly however is that in the 1991 Census, Peter McNab (Mrs McNabs husband) is not at home with the family, and in the 1901--ten years later-- he's an Inmate in the District Union Workhouse, Elswick Northumberland. The plot thickens !!!!!!
Thanks everybody.
 

ChrisM

Super Moderator
Staff member
I’m surprised at the comment in the 2002 book. I wonder where the authors picked that up from. My impression was always that they had drawn very heavily on the 1962 book for the earlier history, although they may of course have gone back to original sources for some aspects of it. In the 1962 there are several comments about this lady’s life and service and just the single reference to the eight children which appears to come from a contemporary source, perhaps at the time of her retirement in 1902 after 40 years of service. (For the benefit of others reading this thread, she lived until 1947 and reached an age of 97, a remarkable achievement in view of the times and her occupation, as was her professional achievement in producing in her department up to 449 million percussion caps a year with an almost spotless safety record, in contrast with the regular carnage which surrounded her).

My own opinion is either that the mention of fourteen is an error or that the contemporary commentator felt it would be insensitive to mention the other six who did not survive. Fourteen confinements seem a huge number to fit into a busy working life; but then, I suppose, eight is not that much less.

Unless there is other evidence confirming it, one has to wonder whether the Peter McNab in straitened circumstances in Northumberland is someone totally unconnected.

You mention her brothers, George. You must have established her maiden name then. Which was?

It’s interesting to note that a son followed her into a similar line of business, one must assume into Kynoch’s. (I’ve just got in the back of my mind the mention of the same surname connected with Witton from the 1940s – possibly a false memory but I wonder if a bit of a dynasty had been established!)

Chris
 
G

george donovan

Guest
Kynochs

A quick reply before I get engrossed in the day

Mrs. McNabs maiden name---DOOLEY In 1881 living with mother (widow) Husband and two children at 3, Witton Lane Handsworth
 
G

george donovan

Guest
Kynochs

Where can I obtain pictures or other research material on HAMSTEAD HALL---once the residence of George Kynoch. It seems through the internet to now being a school. Is it still the same building or was it demolished to make way for the new school amongst other projects.
 
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