Freeman Street

[horsencart]

Any way just read this (properly) I wonder if they would like and old labourer ?
Freeman Street Baptist Meeting House
The History:
A Baptist Meeting House and Burial Ground was licenced for public worship on Freeman Street (now part of a car park at the back of Moor Street Station) in 1729. The meeting house was only open for a short period as it closed between 1752 and 1754. The meeting house was the earliest known Baptist Meeting House in Birmingham.
The meeting house was adapted for various uses until it was finally demolished in 1856 and the site was re-developed for the construction of a warehouse. The site remained in industrial use until the area was cleared in the early 2000s, to make way for a car park.

 

[horsencart]

Edit. This thread was started from a post by Horsencart in the Park Street Archaeological digs thread here https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/for...gs-park-street-pershore-street-digbeth.49120/
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I wonder if they would like and old labourer ?

Freeman Street Baptist Meeting House
The History:
A Baptist Meeting House and Burial Ground was licenced for public worship on Freeman Street (now part of a car park at the back of Moor Street Station) in 1729. The meeting house was only open for a short period as it closed between 1752 and 1754. The meeting house was the earliest known Baptist Meeting House in Birmingham.
The meeting house was adapted for various uses until it was finally demolished in 1856 and the site was re-developed for the construction of a warehouse. The site remained in industrial use until the area was cleared in the early 2000s, to make way for a car park.

 

[Astoness]

and the good news is that the car park will now be subject to an archaeological dig so it would be good if any members who can visit the site from time to time keep us updated on any movements...i will also do the same thing

thanks folks

lyn

 

[horsencart]

According to the HS2 Herbert's at the Library the other day no archaeology will be done in Freeman St possibly till early next year, but what do they know, I did ask if I would be able to have a look inside the tent that they have erected, needleless to say what the reply I was given,

Hopefully, they might be carefully removed and re-used in the area when it is nearing completion.
Hopefully, more than wishful thinking. Anyway a word in the right persons ear might prove useful.

 

[Vivienne14]

A few images of Freeman Street. The first taken around c2010 the second 1958 (the corner of Freeman Street - left - and Park Street). The third shows WW2 bombing of Freeman Street and Park Street (from the Shoothill site). Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

A little more about the Meeting House mentioned in Horsencart’s first post:

“Freeman Street meeting was in existence in 1729 when a congregation of General, or Arminian Baptists registered for public worship a 'newly erected building belonging to Joseph Fullalove' in the street. The church is said to have dissolved in 1754, its members joining the Cannon Street congregation of Particular Baptists“ (From British History online).

Viv.

 

[horsencart]

At the moment they are putting hoarding around the area so that when they do start to dig looking for the Meeting House , we will possible not know, because the hoarding is high making next to impossible to see what is going on, on the other side so apart from taking ladders on the bus, the only way to see is using my trusty Monopod

 

[Vivienne14]

Any efforts very much appreciated Horsencart. Just keeping an eye on things is valuable. Interesting to hear they’re looking for the Meeting House, especially as it dates back to 1729. Thanks. Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

Helpfully William Westley included the Baptist church on Freeman Street on his Plan of Birmingham map in 1731. It would have been roughly half way along Freeman Street. Viv.



So somewhere to the right on this Google Streetview.

 

[Astoness]

What is of interest in Birmingham?
Archaeologists will be looking to...
Explore the 18th and 19th century Park Street burial ground
Investigate the Freeman Street Baptist Meeting House and burial ground
Uncover the remains of Curzon Street Station yard, and
Survey the Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Company at Saltley and Washwood Heath

 

[Eric Gibson]

Just found that one of my Coughlin family lived at No 1 Freeman Street around 1900

 

[Astoness]

that is interesting eric...i wonder if mike could post us a map showing were no 1 was

lyn

 

[mikejee]

Am pretty sure, from consecutive numbering that no 1 was the building in red on the c1889 map

 

[Radiorails]

I see there was an inn, hotel and two public houses in that map (#post 11). There was also a perambulator works - no problem getting home then, providing there was someone sober enough to push!

 

[Eric Gibson]

If my John Coughlin lived at No 1 he could almost fall out of the Mitre Inn and into his bed.

 

[Astoness]

just had this message back from mike hodder(ex bcc archeaologist) in reply to the photo i sent him of my bricks asking if he could date them for me..he also sent me some information that some of you may find of interest and may want to note in your diary

Hi Lyn

I saw it yesterday as well as I was on my way to a meeting in Fazeley St. What a tragedy to lose one of the oldest buildings in this part of Birmingham. The excavation of the Park Street burial ground will take quite a long time and there are also archaeological remains under the car park between the F and G and Moor Street which I assume will be excavated by HS2 Ltd.

I think these bricks are 18th century and part of the original building but it’s a bit difficult to tell from the photo.

One of HS2’s archaeologists is giving a talk at the Birmingham and Warwickshire Archaeological Society on 8 January 2019 at 1pm at the Birmingham and Midland Institute in Margaret Street. It seems a long way ahead but they should have a lot to talk about by then. It’s free and you don’t need to book in advance. It would be good if you can make it.

And I will see you at the Gunmakers next month!

Mike

just bringing this to the top as a reminder for the 8th of jan

 

[sospiri]

HnC,

One dark night feigning drunkeness I suppose you accidentally wander in and have a gander!

Maurice

 

[Radiorails]

This is a view looking up what was Freeman St, in the foreground you will see that they have dug up a number of Set Stones or Cobbles, I would have loved to have seen what was under the cobbles or Set Stones was there a road or what?

https://flic.kr/p/2cyA81g

Someone has laid some type of service it appears. Electricity, water, gas or maybe telecoms?
I wonder if they found anything of interest when digging the trenches?

 

[Vivienne14]

Re #312, just to the right is about where the Chapel would have been. Thought there was an excavation planned of the area where the chapel stood. Any signs of an excavation?

Shall move posts about Freeman Street to the Freeman Street thread and Paternoster Row to its own thread. Viv.

 

[Astoness]

Re #312, just to the right is about where the Chapel would have been. Thought there was an excavation planned of the area where the chapel stood. Any signs of an excavation?

Shall move posts about Freeman Street to the Freeman Street thread and Paternoster Row to its own thread. Viv.

viv i cant be sure if that dig has started yet but will try and find out about the planned excavation of the old meeting house...did not have time before christmas to get up there myself to take a look...failing that i am going to the HS2 meeting next week and there are bound to be questions and answers time so i will ask about it...looks like a few BHF members will also be going so a good chance for a group photo will take my camera

lyn

 

[Vivienne14]

Building a picture of the old Freeman Street.
A school (of sorts) was situated near Moor Street in the 1820s (it suggests the building(s) formerly had an industrial use). There could be a religious connection. The attached article is dated March 1857 - a year after the Baptist Chapel was demolished. Viv.

 

[Phil]

Someone has laid some type of service it appears. Electricity, water, gas or maybe telecoms?
I wonder if they found anything of interest when digging the trenches?

They were more than likely isolating the existing services such as gas, electricity, and water and even drains.

 

[mw0njm.]

According to the HS2 Herbert's at the Library the other day no archaeology will be done in Freeman St possibly till early next year, but what do they know, I did ask if I would be able to have a look inside the tent that they have erected, needleless to say what the reply I was given,

herbert's i love it dont hear that said much now mom use to say to us if you dont pack in you wiill go were herbert went .lol

 

[Vivienne14]

Have been trying to put together a summary of the background to the Freeman Street Chapel. Here goes:

Was once a building c1729 standing in a large yard enclosed by walls. Part of the walled space was possibly a burial ground (as shown on Wm Westley’s 1731 map posted by Mike in post #9).
Used by the Baptist group General or Arminian Baptists (not to be confused with Particular/Calvinistic Baptists as of Cannon Street)
Minister’s name was Marston (from A history of English Baptists by Joseph Ivimey 1830)
It was a “small cell” (building) according to Hutton
It was disused for many years
It was made into a dwelling - #16 Freeman Street
It was last used as a hay and straw warehouse
It was (according to Wm Smith in 1830 in his New & Compendious History of Warks ) abandoned in 1752 when the congregation united itself with the Cannon Street Baptists. Hutton also suggests this.
According to Hutton, the General Baptists seem to have had a new chapel in Lombard Street, Deritend by 1786
Freeman Street Chapel was demolished for new warehousing in 1865
Bones were found at the site by labourers when it was being developed for warehousing for Mr Carter’s ironmonger business (was this warehousing for the foundry ?)

Attached is an article from Aris’s Gazette (29/9/1856) about the Chapel and the congregation. The author challenges Hutton’s dates and views on the the General Baptists. Hutton suggested they were from the High Street (later Cannon Street) followers, claiming they had become discontented followers. But the General Baptists were quite different from the Particular Baptists and in any case it is unlikely that at that time the Town would have justified two chapels (in terms of congregation numbers) of the same specific denomination.

Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

The uncovering of the human remains of 10 bodies at Freeman Street Chapel, seems they were removed to open ground in Fazeley Street, near the canal. From Aris’s Gazette, 15 September 1856. Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

This would be Carter’s iron foundry whose warehouse was built over the Freeman Street Chapel site in 1857 (advert from the Birmingham Journal 28 February 1857) I think the business might have later become the Phoenix Foundry (although would have to confirm that). See Mikes map in post #14.Viv.

 

[Radiorails]

They were more than likely isolating the existing services such as gas, electricity, and water and even drains.

I accept that view Phil, but I am curious why, in an areas fenced off from public use, would they tarmac over their work if solely isolation and further excavations likely. Or is it simply an H&S requirement?

 

[Vivienne14]

Great drawing of Freeman St H&C. Presumably the Read’s Wine & Spirit Stores is the site of the Fox & Grapes with Park St running across the foreground. The drawing must be retrospective as it’s dated 1867, by which time the Meeting House had gone and Carters warehouse was in its place. There seems to be a notice on a pole which I think says “Works”. Wonder if that would be a building notice ? If so what ? Part of the Phoenix Foubdry ? The ground looks very rough behind it.

The drawing depicts Freeman Street in a very poor state. So it’s surprising that the Fox & Grapes survived as long as it did. The building shown is the very same F&G recently demolished. F&G thread is here. https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/fox-and-grapes-digbeth.25896/page-13

Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

Given the date of the drawing, was this made because of the anti-Catholic Murphy Riots of June 1867 ? When WmMurphy preached at Carr’s Lane Chapel in June 1867 riots took place in the area around Freeman Street, Park St etc. All windows were smashed. So maybe this was an image of the aftermath.

It’s odd therefore that the ‘chapel’ should be in the image having been already demolished. Maybe it was artistic licence and the artist is showing a little of Carr’s Lane Chapel. Not very accurate though. Viv.

 

[Astonian]

Hi vivienne , just doing abit of swotting on freeman street .it states;; Hutton beleived that this short street off moor street, Which emerged before 1771, was named after a landowner , whom would be the land owner ? from the twelfth, ,century a cross the way remains found in Moor Street and Park street indicates human activit from at least the late twelfty century onwards, both these streets were cut out after Edgebaston street And DIGBETH and its continuation High town [ High street ] Astonian;;;;;;;;