It was, a line of longish tunnels that I have walked throught many years ago.
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Rivers : Forgotten Streams or Brooks of Birmingham
- Thread starter gingerjon
- Start date
It was, a line of longish tunnels that I have walked throught many years ago.
This is Bill Dargue’s suggestion :
A location shown on the 1890 Ordnance Survey map below Upper Witton Lakes where Gipsy Lane meets Marsh Hill. The brook is Hawthorn Brook which rises on the high ground west of Sutton Park and runs down to Witton and Brookvale Lakes before joining the River Tame near Spaghetti Junction.
Viv.
A location shown on the 1890 Ordnance Survey map below Upper Witton Lakes where Gipsy Lane meets Marsh Hill. The brook is Hawthorn Brook which rises on the high ground west of Sutton Park and runs down to Witton and Brookvale Lakes before joining the River Tame near Spaghetti Junction.
Viv.
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
I remember that there was a problem with Hawthorn Brook, but can't find it at the moment.
I thought there was a pollution incident, but cannot remember where I read this. Maybe they sorted it it quite a decent source of water
Hi,
Rivers always finally output to the sea, so although they don't necessarily reach the sea
themselves, they join other rivers that do. So locally the Rivers Blythe and Cole and Tame
don't reach the sea themselves, but the Blythe and Cole join the Tame, which joins the Trent,
which joins the Ouse, which reaches the sea at the Humber estuary.
BUT, why then is the Kingshurst Brook not called a river, as it joins the Cole. Is it just a
question of size?
Anyone who knows the River Eype in Dorset would know that it is infinitely smaller than the
Kingshurst Brook, - in fact I took a photo of my missus straddling the mouth of the Eype.
Mind you, it wasn't in spate at the time, which is about the only occasion when it manages
to cross the beach to the English Channel !
Kind regards
Dave
Rivers always finally output to the sea, so although they don't necessarily reach the sea
themselves, they join other rivers that do. So locally the Rivers Blythe and Cole and Tame
don't reach the sea themselves, but the Blythe and Cole join the Tame, which joins the Trent,
which joins the Ouse, which reaches the sea at the Humber estuary.
BUT, why then is the Kingshurst Brook not called a river, as it joins the Cole. Is it just a
question of size?
Anyone who knows the River Eype in Dorset would know that it is infinitely smaller than the
Kingshurst Brook, - in fact I took a photo of my missus straddling the mouth of the Eype.
Mind you, it wasn't in spate at the time, which is about the only occasion when it manages
to cross the beach to the English Channel !
Kind regards
Dave
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
There is a little about Hawthorn Brook and the proposal for the Witton Reservoirs on the thread below.
Also mentioned is Perry Brook...
birminghamhistory.co.uk
Also mentioned is Perry Brook...
Upper, Middle And Lower Witton Reservoirs.
Somewhere on the Forum it was mentioned about a tragedy in this area at the sand pits near Witton Lakes, but I can’t as yet locate it. Any ideas?
birminghamhistory.co.uk
sospiri
GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN
Pedro,
On the definition of a stream, surely it is also reasonable to say that water that orignates from a spring, as many of them do, also becomes a stream before it is joined by other tributaries to become a river.
The difference a stream or is a brook is probably more difficult to define, but when I was young, a brook was just a stream that had enclarged, but not become big enough to be a river.
Maurice
On the definition of a stream, surely it is also reasonable to say that water that orignates from a spring, as many of them do, also becomes a stream before it is joined by other tributaries to become a river.
The difference a stream or is a brook is probably more difficult to define, but when I was young, a brook was just a stream that had enclarged, but not become big enough to be a river.
Maurice
There is a little about Hawthorn Brook and the proposal for the Witton Reservoirs on the thread below.
Also mentioned is Perry Brook...
Upper, Middle And Lower Witton Reservoirs.
Somewhere on the Forum it was mentioned about a tragedy in this area at the sand pits near Witton Lakes, but I can’t as yet locate it. Any ideas?
I wonder if the Perry Brook is the one from Kings Vale and Lodge Pool?
My dad told me how he swam in the Swimming Bath that was on the brook between Witton Lodge Farm and St Marys College.
It would also be nice to know the name of the brook that ran form Station Road Erdington too.
Pedro,
On the definition of a stream, surely it is also reasonable to say that water that orignates from a spring, as many of them do, also becomes a stream before it is joined by other tributaries to become a river.
The difference a stream or is a brook is probably more difficult to define, but when I was young, a brook was just a stream that had enclarged, but not become big enough to be a river.
Maurice
One definition I heard was it ceases to be a brook when you cannot step over it.
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
Just looking at the 1880's map and Perry Brook seems to join the Tame just after the Church Tavern, but doesn't seem to extend back to Lodge Pool.
The stream from Lodge Pool looks to go the other way and down to Witton Lakes.
I had always thought that the Hawthorne Brook which was suggested as a water source was the stream shown in red on the c1889 map below
Certainly according to this ( from http://industrialrivertame.blogspot.com/2014/11/salford-bridge.html) the Hawthorne Brook entered the Tame a lot further down than Witton Lakes:
The present site of Salford Bridge is very near to an ancient crossing. According to William Fowler, writing in 1883, 'the ancient ford and bridge were situate about fifty yards higher up the stream than the present bridge and a very short distance above the old bridge'.* This is where Hawthorne Brook used to come into the Tame, now lost underground it can be spotted briefly along the Tame Valley Canal. The area here was good ground for a crossing point due to its gravelly nature (hence Gravelly Hill nearby). The name itself was originally Scaford or Scraford, the word scraet meaning cave; near to the original crossing there were caves formed in the sandstone rock, probably either by the river or by Hawthorne Brook. First mentioned in the 1400s, Fowler notes that the caves were 'known as the Dwarf holes, [and] are marked and so described on many ancient maps.'*
But it does seem there were two with that name
Certainly according to this ( from http://industrialrivertame.blogspot.com/2014/11/salford-bridge.html) the Hawthorne Brook entered the Tame a lot further down than Witton Lakes:
The present site of Salford Bridge is very near to an ancient crossing. According to William Fowler, writing in 1883, 'the ancient ford and bridge were situate about fifty yards higher up the stream than the present bridge and a very short distance above the old bridge'.* This is where Hawthorne Brook used to come into the Tame, now lost underground it can be spotted briefly along the Tame Valley Canal. The area here was good ground for a crossing point due to its gravelly nature (hence Gravelly Hill nearby). The name itself was originally Scaford or Scraford, the word scraet meaning cave; near to the original crossing there were caves formed in the sandstone rock, probably either by the river or by Hawthorne Brook. First mentioned in the 1400s, Fowler notes that the caves were 'known as the Dwarf holes, [and] are marked and so described on many ancient maps.'*
But it does seem there were two with that name
pjmburns
master brummie
Not sure how relevant this is but:
John Morris Jones was a headmaster of George Dixon Junior School in west Birmingham from 1960 to 1980. He wrote extensively about the local history of the South Birmingham area, particularly Yardley, Hall Green and Sarehole.
On one of the many maps he drew of the Yardley (based on the boundaries of Yardley in 972) area he lists the following:
John Morris Jones was a headmaster of George Dixon Junior School in west Birmingham from 1960 to 1980. He wrote extensively about the local history of the South Birmingham area, particularly Yardley, Hall Green and Sarehole.
On one of the many maps he drew of the Yardley (based on the boundaries of Yardley in 972) area he lists the following:
Ok, did you find a map?
mw0njm.
A Brummie Dude
wow!! our maurice very well putPedro,
On the definition of a stream, surely it is also reasonable to say that water that orignates from a spring, as many of them do, also becomes a stream before it is joined by other tributaries to become a river.
The difference a stream or is a brook is probably more difficult to define, but when I was young, a brook was just a stream that had enclarged, but not become big enough to be a river.
Maurice
If you haven’t already seen these, the maps below from a paper by Peter King may be of interest in looking at the brooks, streams and pools in the Perry Barr area. These are considered in relation to the various mills around that were once in the area.
Viv.
Viv.
Attachments
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
Bob Davis
Bob Davis
Map 2, what was a blade mill?
Bob
Swords or knife sharpening or similar I think Bob. Viv.
As a youngster I remember this as a paddling pool
oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
In the 1940s to 1960s every kid in the Great Barr/Perry Beeches area knew about and played around the 'Brook' which rose from a spring in the grounds of St Margarets Hospital. On the map below it is highlighted in blue running through Perry Beeches under the Tame Valley Canal into Perry Barr Park reservoir. From there is went under Church Road running into the River Tame near the Zig Zag bridge. We built dams on the brook, caught 'tiddlers' in it, played 'Poo sticks', jumped it and fell in, it was a big part of our young lives. I never knew whether it had an official name.
Today, parts of it run in a pipe under the M6 and it has been diverted in other places. The only people who know about it these days are those who live near the diversions suffering occasional flooding.
Today, parts of it run in a pipe under the M6 and it has been diverted in other places. The only people who know about it these days are those who live near the diversions suffering occasional flooding.
