• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
  • HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
    Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
    im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
    we are now using a backup solution

Electric Trams

On reflection Bob I agree with you, I did miss the fact of no trolley pole. There were two tramcars which were longer than the rest of the fleet, cars 451 and 452, nicknamed 'titanics' and were over 34ft. in length. They had five bays rather than the usual four but apparently never had the upper open balconies enclosed, so that rules that line of thought out. However those cars were to be seen on the eastern routes.
 
My theory is that there are two trams and the tram on the left has almost completed it's left turn out of Tyburn Road and the tram on the right is waiting to continue behind it towards the city. If it was one tram some levels on the trams don't seem to match by a small amount.
2Trams.JPG
 
Last edited:
Radiorails, I certainly think you may be onto something here, it does not look quite right to me either.

Its looks to me as if this image is a composite image and has been manipulated. There are a few artefacts on the right-hand side and the prospective does not quite line up.

It registered as a ‘suspect’ image on a website I use to check manipulated images, but it cannot define this as absolute fact.

Does anyone know the location of this photo?
 
What are the blocks of white going across the road ? A zebra crossing ? Looks very stretched to me. And the Gravelly Rd sign doesn't look like a typical street sign. Viv.
 
oldMohawk said:
A No 79 tram and a No 78 passing behind it with a young lad standing on the bottom step ready to jump off probably before the tram completely stops. A sign over the window of a shop suggests that it is at 21 Gravelly Hill.
View attachment 118648
Click to expand...
I've put my theory in post#418 in the tram thread and the location of the pic is in that thread ... the shops are located. Before I had uploaded the original I had sharpened it and altered the contrast. There is a change of roof levels but not ground levels see here https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/salford-bridge.45932/page-3#post-586921
 
Last edited:
Was there ever a Gravelly Road ? I know of Gravelly Lane and Gravelly Hill, but not Gravelly Road. Viv.
 
The whole pic is obviously (to me anyway) manipulated, that is Lichfield Rd in background just past Salford Bridge and yet the 79 tram is shown entering Tyburn Road, therefore you should have Slade Road behind it, it being a major cross roads right where that long (?) tram is, and Gravelly Hill on the right. I lived by there for 25 years and it is not how I remember it, it looks completely wrong. Also what is that 21 Gravelly Rd, I've never heard of a Gravelly Rd only Gravelly Hill. Eric
 
Last edited:
Reference two trams or one very long tram ...:)
The three following pics are linked pics so only visible when logged in.
The 'discussion pic' ... notice a slight curve of the kerb far right suggesting the road curves away from the camera. The 'road sign' over the shop looks unofficial probably placed there by the shop. There seems to be image foreshortening which I have noticed in other old pics.
index.php


In this pic the roof lines, shops, adverts, and names match the 'discussion pic' and the road is wide.
index.php


This much earlier earlier pic shows the shops and roof levels etc.
index.php
 
Last edited:
On neither pic 2 or 3 in post #429 does it have the road name sign "Gravelly Road" above the window to the right of the tram in pic 1. I feel quite certain that it was added to pic 1 - it just doesn't look right. Viv.
 
I think the road sign is an advert for the shop and probably should not have been allowed because it could mislead people not from that area and also mislead people in the future looking at the pic ...:)
 
Well, this thread has certainly caused interest and the general impression seems to be that it is not a true photograph but one or maybe two combined. Fake news isn't new! :D
This does emphasise my comment about attempting to maintain accuracy, especially on this Forum. There is more than enough conjecture to be read on other social sites. ;)
 
I don't think it is two pics. Unless it is very professionally done it is usually possible to see signs with close study of the image pixels. In pic 1 in post#429 the far kerb on the left is at a slight angle to the kerb on the right of the tram and this matches the more visible angle between the low roof and higher roof buildings shown in Pic 3.
 
Just wondering if Mike has a map of the area showing the tram line layout? I now think it not a composite image too.
 
A No 79 tram making the turn into Tyburn Road at Salford Bridge. Some familiar shops in the pic compared to pic 1 in post#429 ... Broads Travel etc. Seems to confirm the image foreshortening effect in the other pic.
n79salfordbridge.jpg
 
The 1950 photograph adequately shown the tracks which lead to the tram shelters There is a crossover there. That would explain the lack of a visible trolley pole on one of the trams; this pole has been reversed and this suggests to me that both trams are going to head in the same direction. In addition there seems to be a driver in one tram and passengers are alighting from the other again suggesting the same directions of intended travel.
 
The trams have gone, just one tram wire supporting pole on the left. The shop with the '21 Gravelly Rd' sign above the window has been altered.
salfordtrams gone.JPG
Another view, some shops have changed, some paint fading.
salford shops.jpg
 
Last edited:
Before they built the motorway, I recall that row of shops as being single story, with the last one next to the canal bridge being a radio shop.
 
Hi Its really interesting to see how the street scene changes over the years. Trying to put them into date order by the rate of decay in the shop fronts,and changes of use.Thank you Mohawk
 
Bob Davis said:
Radiorails
I do not want to disagree with you as your information and knowledge is always spot on, but I think there is only one tram at the back. it does look unusually long, but there is no trolley pole visible at the left hand side of the picture and you can see the shops on the far side of the road through the windows of the tram. I printed this out on A3 and went over it with a magnifying glass. If there is a skilled draughtsman and the measurements of a tram were available it could be possible to draw the missing body in through the 79 tram and prove how many trams there are. I tried it roughly using a side view from one of the David Harvey books I have and it did match up.
Bob
Click to expand...
A draughtsman friend and I went over this photo with a fine toothcomb, firstly scaling the windows from a sideways view in one of David Harveys books, the back tram has room for four windows as a typically four window bay, taking into account all the other bits and pieces, the zebra crossing slopes away. but that could be the road camber, the shadows are a little suspect, but that again could be the angle of the shot. The important thing is that the roof of the back tram is correct to be the roof of the front tram, and there is no slippage of the livery. The picture at 416 does in actual fact line up the tracks with this picture and I think any seeming disparities are at the hands of the late 1940s early 1950s cameraman. From the shadow s it was obviously a bright day and we do not know what sort of camera he was using, and of course the trams were moving so he took a snapshot. What did amaze my draughtsman friend were the people waiting to get off as the tram is not stationery but moving into the tram stops further along the line, and yet they stood with only one hand to steady them on that bottom step as the tram swayed (and yes they did sway) into the stop. He felt that in this day and age, trams like this would be banned, then I showed him the picture of the stairs to the upper deck. But I suddenly realised that all these black and white photos of trams and those coloured by Old Mohawk show a magnificent machine, reminiscent of an age perhaps but with an identity and a proud livery usually very clean reflecting the pride that the city took in its transport fleet. Now we have all these identikit tin boxes bereft of a manufacturers name, but garishlypainted and so often now with the windows covered in advertising.
Bob
 
J.H.Barker seems to have become a 'ghost picture' in the second one, although it is still a butchers albeit one owned by W. Gibbs & Son. The travel bureau and radio dealer have also gone and are now a gas and electric cooker company. Giles has had new wall adverts done above the shop from; not sure what the new ones describe.
 
Post 441 by Bob mentions the folks, poised and ready to alight from the tram. A very common occurrence in the days of trams and before buses had doors fitted. Many stops could witness people jumping off trams and buses yards from their stopping places, particularly during the working peoples rush hour times and many passengers were out of their seats after the tram/bus left the penultimate stop and were psyched up for their leap into the open (unknown?). Very few went 'hairpins over bustle' and nobody blamed the bus company, driver/conductor if they did as they were sensible enough to know it was their own fault. I am sure it was a form of stress relief often after a hard and maybe repetitive working day. :D
Those, of course were the days before 'ambulance chasers' and the belief that whatever goes wrong is always someone else's fault and somebody should be doing something about it. ;)
 
I had a go today colouring the pic with GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program). I heard someone on TV say a picture had been 'Photoshopped' and I suppose it would sound funny if they said a picture had been 'Gimped'...
Shortheath_terminus_gimp.jpg
Below is the original black and white pic from post#429 only visible if logged in.
oldMohawk said:
A No 78 at the Short Heath terminus with the driver apparently waiting to turn his key in the Bundy clock before he can set off back to town.
Click to expand...
index.php
 
You friend may be a draughtsman, but that does not make him, or yourself right. I also disagree with what you say that “the roof of the back tram is correct to be the roof of the front tram”.


I have also enlarged this photo too, and as oldMohawk confirmed in post #422 the levels on the trams don't seem to match by a small amount. It was this prospective error or parallax misalignment that made me think it may be a composite image.


I would say that there are most likely two trams both facing the same direction. People getting ready to jump off the back of trams and busses was a regular occurrence. In fact, did it myself a few times.


I think that this image was taken with a camera and lens with quite a long focal length. This may explain why the perspective is compressed and the shops to the right look relatively straight, when we know they curved away at the corner of Slade Road.


This has been a fascinating discussion, that will hopefully continue. It is captivating how we interpret the past. I quite often hear people talk about historical fact and will refer to the primary source as fact. This post goes to show that even with a photograph, different people see the image in different ways, and will interpret the past in ways relating to their own culture, education, social standing and experiences.
 
At least readers, now and in the future, can assess what has been suggested and written and hopefully make their own conclusions at that time.
 
Tram 700 is displaying posters announcing the final closure of the tramway system and replacement by buses. The General Managers name is quite clear and that of Wilfred Harry Smith who took over the job on 9th. December, 1950. He had worked for the Corporation since 1912 commencing as a junior clerk. Thirty two others, many already general managers of other British municipal bus systems, applied for the job. A tradition of keeping it in the family alredat had a precedent as the first GM, Alfred Baker was succeeded by his son, Alfred Chantry Baker in 1928. A.C. Baker joined the corporation in 1922 and his death caused the vacancy. W.H. Smith retired in 1962 and was suceeded by his deputy W.G. Copestake who had been Chief Engineer.

Post 103, by Lloyd, in the Birmingham Buses thread has similar information.
 
Many have probably seen this film but if you have not it is worth a look to see the old trams running. It is nearly two hours long so needs some fast forwarding in places (use your mouse to click along the bar) but some very familiar street views and the old trams running. It starts slowly with some general Brum views but in places there are clear views of trams. Looks good full screen.
Some nice views from the top of a No 5 Lozells tram traveling the route see it crossing Six Ways about 1 hour into the film.
 
Last edited:
Hi very interesting film..This is the first film I have seen of FOK 90 the last trolly bus on the Coventry Road route,. Which was driven by my Grandfather on the last day. Thank You.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top