Electric Trams

[maypolebaz]

As a child I remember watching the tram driver turning the pantograph (?) around for the return journey and this would've been at Pype Hayes terminus.
I can't help but think that this was later than '53 though. Could it be that trams carried on to Pype Hayes after the Erdington terminus closed ?

 

[Stitcher]

I have'nt got a clue, the newspaper artricle said 1953 but Lloyd will let us know as soon as he sees the post.

 

[Lloyd]

The system closed to public operation on 4th July 1953, although there were stock movements from Miller Street depot to Kyotts Lake Road works where the last trams were scrapped for a short time afteer that. Turning the pole at Pype Hayes would have ended at the closure, as it would at Erdington (the Yenton) and Short Heath terminus.

 

[Stitcher]

Thank you that Lloyd, I knew you would be able to verify if it was correct or not.

 

[maypolebaz]

The system closed to public operation on 4th July 1953, although there were stock movements from Miller Street depot to Kyotts Lake Road works where the last trams were scrapped for a short time afteer that. Turning the pole at Pype Hayes would have ended at the closure, as it would at Erdington (the Yenton) and Short Heath terminus.

So it WAS that far back ?
Blimey, my memory's not as bad as I thought !

 

[Stitcher]

1949.
Suffolk Street/John Bright Street.

 

[DavidGrain]

Interesting to see the alignment of the streets in those days. The 71 tram from Rubery on the left will go up Suffolk Street and into Navigation Street while the outbound tram in John Bright Street could be either a Bristol Road or a Pershore Road tram as I can't read the route number.

 

[oldMohawk]

I put this street view in the 'Old street pics' thread - I remember the trams, but wonder what was the purpose of the post in the left foreground and similar posts near the tracks on the far side of the junction ?

[/URL]

 

[daverock]

Could the posts be a form of signalling system just for trams as the track has a turn as well as going straight on?

 

[Lloyd]

I remember the trams, but wonder what was the purpose of the post in the left foreground and similar posts near the tracks on the far side of the junction ?

They were cast iron posts with red lenses, lit by a bulb - to tell motorists there was no entry here. Used where trams entered a central reservation, or went through a traffic island. This view shows both uses, the photographer is standing on the start of a central reservation in the dual carriageway, and the far bollard is for the island at Holly Lane / Tyburn Rd junction.

The trams, track and island have gone but the scene is still recogniseable today - https://goo.gl/maps/eTM4v

 

[oldMohawk]

Thanks Lloyd for that information. I'm now starting to wonder how a driver of a tram that has to turn right at that junction ensures that the tram does turn right, did they have to get out and alter the points ?

 

[oldMohawk]

I'm now starting to wonder how a driver of a tram that has to turn right at that junction ensures that the tram does turn right, did they have to get out and alter the points ?

I've searched back in the forum and can see some discussion here about it from posts #53 to #59.
When I think back, I never went on a tram which needed points changing.

 

[Lloyd]

Yes, the driver had a 'point iron' to change the blade of the track pointfor whichever way he wanted to go. The conductor did likewise with the overhead wire - pulling a wire or rope attached to a nearby roadside pole changed the 'frog', a point in the overhead wire.

Changing the points, Christchurch New Zealand, 1927.

 

[DavidGrain]

In June I was in Nordhausen in Germany and I watched a driver get out and change the points manually for a right turn. However other trams made the right turn without the driver having to get out. My understanding is that the system in Birmingham was that if the tram passed a contact point with power on the points were switched one way but if power was off the points were set the other way.

Wikipedia has a note about this on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram_controls

 

[oldMohawk]

Thanks David for the information and link.
Although I had said in #204 that I had never been on a tram that needed points change, I've since realised that the No 6 Perry Barr tram I mostly used would have gone through points at Lancaster Place and I now understand why I never saw a driver stop the tram and get off to change points.

 

[oldMohawk]

Another view of tram posts mentioned in #200. This photo shows the Bristol Road South c1931.

 

[oldMohawk]

Looking at some old tram pics, I noticed this scene in Hockley 1913 which shows that conduit current collection between the rails was initially used. These were presumably replaced by overhead lines which can be seen in the pic.

 

[DavidGrain]

The Hockley trams were cable operated before overhead electrification. What you see in the centre of the tracks is the slot through which the gripper ran to grip the cable not a conduit for electric power collection.

This photo is taken from the Library of Birmingham website

A Cable Tram stopped at Hockley Brook in July 1890.
Reference: WK-H10-2

 

[oldMohawk]

Thanks David for that information, I had never thought of cable operation. I will have to look up some information to see how it worked, must have been interesting for the drivers.
Sent from my iPad

 

[paul spedding]

Hello, I don't own the image I've uploaded and not sure if it belongs in this thread but thought some people on here might like to the bus !

 

[Lloyd]

Indeed Paul, I've not seen this one before - although I have seen the bus!
O9926, originally with the Midland Red company in 1913 soon passed with several others, their staff and depot in Tennant St, Ladywood, to the Birmingham Corporation Tramways in 1914 after an agreement by which the corporation owned and operated all routes which ran totally inside the city boundary, and the Midland Red ran further out from the city although retaining central terminus points. It much later became a shed on a freeholding in Nottinghamshire, and was rescued for eventual preservation at the Wythall Transport Museum.

 

[Lloyd]

Thanks David for that information, I had never thought of cable operation. I will have to look up some information to see how it worked, must have been interesting for the drivers.
Sent from my iPad

Try this site for more information - the Handsworth line used the same cable system as is still used in San Francisco. https://www.cablecarmuseum.org/heritage.html

 

[oldMohawk]

Try this site for more information - the Handsworth line used the same cable system as is still used in San Francisco. https://www.cablecarmuseum.org/heritage.html

Hi Lloyd - Thanks for the information. I have been studying the systems but still can't work out how the cables go round corners. Some sort of guidance would be needed and I would assume that the gripper has to push past any guidance devices. There is a slight curve on the hill in the photo.
oldmohawk

and in this photo linked to post#210

 

[paul spedding]

Indeed Paul, I've not seen this one before - although I have seen the bus!
O9926, originally with the Midland Red company in 1913 soon passed with several others, their staff and depot in Tennant St, Ladywood, to the Birmingham Corporation Tramways in 1914 after an agreement by which the corporation owned and operated all routes which ran totally inside the city boundary, and the Midland Red ran further out from the city although retaining central terminus points. It much later became a shed on a freeholding in Nottinghamshire, and was rescued for eventual preservation at the Wythall Transport Museum.


View attachment 95488

Glad you like my photo, I worked at a photo studio in Harborne many years ago when a customer brought in the original for me to copy on a 5X4 inch plate copy camera.

 

[Astonian]

Hi paul
Here is a list of the old tram ways and there routes that was taken,
Service number
2.Erdington. And steel house lane
3witton and Martineau street via six ways.
3x within and Martineau street. Via Aston cross
5.Lozells and Slade road Gravelly hill
6 Perry Barr and Martineau Street
8 Alum rock and Martineau street
10.wash wood Heath fox and Goose and Martineau street
11. Bordeskey Green and Seymour street via,Fazely Street. ( Rush hour only )
23. Hands worth and Colmore row ( rush periods only )
24 Lozells and Col more row(via wheeler Street,
26Oxhill Road. (Hands worth ) Col more Row,
28 New Inns (Handsworth and Col more row (rush hour Periods only)
29 Bearwood and Edmond Street
30 Windmill Lane ( Cape hill) and Edmond Street rush hour only,
31 Heath street (Soho and Edmond street
32 Lodge Road ( Winson Green ) and Edmond street
33 Ladywood and Navigation street,
35 Selly Oak and Navigation Street( Rush Periods only)

The cable car was introduced in1886/1887,
Was so called because of the continuous moving cable, set in a slot on the road
To which the tram could be Attached and released by a claw gripper mechanism,
In 1888 Colmore row was linked with Shockley by this means and a year later the route was extended to new Inns
Handsworth, remaining in use until. 1911
The System was first tried in San Francisco in1873.
Early post card publishers were quick to realise the sales opportunities afforded by intresting Events
Whatever the merits of the poem
The top deck Advertisement provide a startling reminder of how efficient steam train services could be nearly
A century ago
And if I recall the west bromwich trolley bus which was after there tram came into service until the late 1950 s was still
Connected to over head cables coming down through Soho rd through the brook and to snow hill
Best wishes Alan,,,, Astonian,,,,

 

[DavidGrain]

Thanks Alan for the list of tram routes

I can add 34 Navigation Street to Bearwood (via Holloway Head) which closed in 1930. Although this route ended just round the corner from the 29 there was never a connection between the two routes. The number 34 lived on for many years after the tram finished because as late as the 1960s I used to catch the 34 bus from Quinton to college in Gosta Green going via Holloway Head.

The 29 route still survives as the 82 previously a joint BCT/Midland Red route B82

 

[carolina]

Steam tram Sparkbrook

 

[oldMohawk]

Learning how to drive the trams of their days ....

 

[anvil man]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but I thought a lovely picture of a tram climbing Griffins Hill on the Bristol Road probably pre WW2. Notice the lovely clear dual carriageway.

 

[Radiorails]

Learning how to drive the trams of their days ....
View attachment 98392

I believe these ladies are undergoing training in WW1, their attire suggests that.

This is more comprehensive list of Birmingham tram routes provided from this web site which I am sure many are familiar with.

https://www.robertdarlaston.co.uk/Trams.htm

A SUMMARY OF PRINCIPAL BIRMINGHAM TRAM ROUTES
In clockwise order around the city, starting in the north.

No.	Destination (from City Centre)	City centre terminus	Main road taken out of city	Mileage	Journey Time (min)	Closed
6	Perry Barr	Martineau St	Newtown Row	2.64	18	1949
3	Witton via Six Ways	Martineau St	Newtown Row	2.50	17	1939
3X	Witton via Aston Cross	Martineau St	Aston Road	2.37	18	1949
1 #	Stockland Green	Steelhouse Lane	Lichfield Road	3.64	23	1953
78	Short Heath	Steelhouse Lane	Lichfield Road	4.09	25	1953
2	Erdington	Steelhouse Lane	Lichfield Road	4.89	30	1953
79	Pype Hayes Park	Steelhouse Lane	Lichfield Road	5.15	30	1953
63	Tyburn Road (i.e., Fort Dunlop)	Steelhouse Lane	Lichfield Road	4.38	26	1953
7	Nechells	Martineau St	Great Lister Street	2.3 (est)		1922
10	Washwood Heath (i.e., Fox & Goose)	Martineau St	Ashted Row	3.87	23	1950
8	Alum Rock	Martineau St	Ashted Row	3.22	19	1950
11 #	Bordesley Green via Fazeley St	Albert Street	Bordesley Green	2.54	20	1948
12 #	Bordesley Green via Deritend	Albert Street	Bordesley Green	2.4 (est)	19	1948
90	Stechford via Fazeley Street	Albert Street	Bordesley Green	3.86	26	1948
84	Stechford via Deritend	Albert Street	Bordesley Green	3.60	25	1948
15	Yardley and Albert Street	Albert Street	Coventry Road	3.8 (est)		1934
16	Yardley and Station Street	Station St	Coventry Road	3.9 (est)		1934
22	Bolton Road	Hill Street	Coventry Road	2.1 (est)		1930
44	Acocks Green	Albert Street	Warwick Road	4.2 (est)	29	1937
17	Hall Green and Albert Street	Albert Street	Stratford Road	5.43	32	1937
18	Hall Green and Hill Street	Hill Street	Stratford Road	5.45	32	1937
4	Stoney Lane	Hill Street	Stratford Road	2.76	26	1937
42	Alcester Lanes End and Albert St	Albert Street	Moseley Road	4.9 (est)	32	1949
39	Alcester Lanes End via Balsall Heath	Hill Street	out via St Lukes Rd, in via Gooch St	4.8 (est)	31	1949
51	Alcester Lanes End via Leopold St	Hill Street	Moseley Road	5.0 (est)		1949
37	Cannon Hill	Navigation St	circular route via Balsall Heath	2.01	16	1949
36	Pershore Rd (i.e., Cotteridge)	Navigation St	Pershore Road	4.82	28	1952
35 #	Selly Oak	Navigation St	Bristol Road	3.39	19	1952
69 #	Northfield	Navigation St	Bristol Road	5.56	29	1952
70	Rednal	Navigation St	Bristol Road	8.19	43	1952
71	Rubery	Navigation St	Bristol Road	8.00	43	1952
34	Hagley Road (i.e., The King's Head)	Navigation St	Hagley Road	3.5 (est)		1930
33	Ladywood	Navigation St	Ladywood Road	2.38	16	1947
29	Bearwood	Edmund Street	Dudley Road	3.63	25	1939
87	Oldbury and Dudley	Edmund Street	Dudley Road	8.26	52	1939
31	Soho	Edmund Street	Dudley Road	2.58	20	1939
32	Lodge Road	Edmund Street	Frederick Street	2.44	17	1947
74	Dudley	Snow Hill station	Soho Road	8.97	54	1939
75	Wednesbury	Snow Hill station	Soho Road	7.25	47	1939
26	Oxhill Road	Snow Hill station	Soho Road	3.15	20	1939
24	Lozells via Wheeler Street	Snow Hill station	Gt Hampton Row	2.06	17	1939
25	Lozells via Hamstead Road	Snow Hill station	Gt Hampton St	2.06	17	1933
Notes:
There was one inter-suburban route: 5 - Lozells to Gravelly Hill (closed 1950): 2.9 miles, 20 minutes
# - Route 1 became a short working of the 78 in 1926 on extension of the line to Short Heath.
Route 35 became a short working of the 69 in 1923 on extension of the line to Northfield.
Routes 35 and 69 became short workings of the 70 and 71 in 1924/26 on extension to Rednal and Rubery.
Routes 11 and 12 became shortworkings of 90 and 84 in 1928 on extension of the line to Stechford.
Routes 24 and 25 were operated as one continuous circular route until withdrawal of the 25 in 1933.
All numbers 1-91 were used for routes: those not listed above were mostly short workings turning back before the final terminus.

Notes:

Route 7 and the 15 and 16 were converted to trolley-bus operation in 1922 and 1934 respectively. The 7 was converted to motor-bus operation in 1940 and the remaining trolley-bus services ceased in 1951.

Except for those distances marked “est”, I am indebted to Geoffrey Skelsey for the mileage and timing details which he extracted from official Birmingham Corporation Tramways & Omnibus Department records published in the 1930s.

Route numbers in the list above may appear to have been allocated at random, but there was, in fact, a geographical pattern to the earlier numbers with one exception:
Routes 1 - 6 ran to the north and northeast of the city
(with the exception of route 4 which ran due south!)
Routes 7 - 12 ran to the east of the city
Routes 13 – 22 ran to the southeast of the city
Routes 23 – 28 ran to the north and northwest of the city
Routes 29 – 34 ran to the west of the city
Routes 35 – 54 ran to the south and southwest of the city
Routes numbered from 55 upwards were largely short workings introduced after 1915, with these exceptions:
73-77 and 80/85-88 were Black Country routes taken over by Birmingham Corporation in 1924 and 1928 respectively.
70-71, 78 and 84/90 were extensions of existing routes as shewn in the table above.
79 was a new route partially opened as the 63 in 1920 on construction of Tyburn Road and numbered 79 on completion of the route to Pype Hayes Park in 1927.

Actually many routes have other service numbers related to the route number they followed. They were used for short workings at rush periods. e.g. 19 was a part journey of route 17 and 20 part of route 18.