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Davies, George Alfred - Butcher born 1861 Birmingham

B

Birminghamgirl

Brummie babby
I started a thread when I first joined looking for the 1st husband of my great aunt Ellen Davis born 1865 in Welford on Avon.

Each year I come back to query & since my thread I have found out more information:

George (Alfred or H or T or A) Davies
When first born Elsie Ellen Davies was christened in Bromsgrove her father is given as George Alfred Davies of Moseley Road, Birmingham - meats salesman.I have found a possible person - in 1881 a George A Davies born Birmingham 1861 a butcher is living at 39 Hockley Hill with his parents
William Davies age 54 a japaner born Nantwich & Elizabeth Davies age 55 born London. ( 2 sites have him as George H or George T but it looks like a "A" to me & there is a birth for a George Alfred Davies in Birmingham in 1861)

I know by the time George's second daughter is born in 1888 he is calling himself Alfred George. The certificates I have originally say Davies but by the time Florence Amy is married she is Davis & in 1911 Ellen is a widow also back to the Davis spelling. ( I can't find them on the 1901 census but in 1891 Ellen (Davies) is with her 2 daughters living on her own means at 332 Witton Road Aston but no husband )

William Davies (George’s father)
Frustratingly I can find nothing on the William Davies family after 1881 apart from George's sister Sarah Ann who appears to marry a John A Davies who ironically is also a butcher but her daughter Sarah Ann Agnes Davies born 1878 Handsworth has a mother's maiden name of Applebie.
So in 1881 is Sarah a daughter-in-law or daughter? John was born 1865 so only 13 when Sarah's daughter was born. The 1891 census is the same Sarah Ann as she has the right DOB & is a japaner on both also her daughter is born 1878 in Handsworth on both.

On the family search I have found a William Davies christened in Nantwich on 30 Oct 1826 parents Nathaniel & Hannah.

Ellen Davies (George’s wife)
I seemed to be steeped in a Davies family who don't make any sense at all I think I found George Alfred b 1861 Birmingham in 1891 in London as Journeyman butcher but he says he is single , an error ? As this would fit as Ellen is alone with her daughters saying she is married. I also found a death in Birmingham in 1901 for an Alfred Davies of the right age again it fits as Ellen is a widow by 1911, I have a wedding photo of my grandfather with just Ellen & Florence ( Elsie sadly died young ) & no husband in 1904.

If anyone can make any sense of all this or have any suggestions it would be great. I intend to join Ancestry shortly to see if they have any hints which may be useful & the other thing would be to get the death certificate of Alfred Davies in 1910 - otherwise it is shelve it for another year & see what turns up!
 
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The George Davies son of William (b Nantwich) and Elizabeth (b London) appears to be a George Henry Davies, registered Dec qtr 1860 mmn North.

All the other children on the 1871 census - Sarah Ann, Thomas Nathanel, Harry and John Alfred are all registered Davies with mmn North.

So possibly wrong family.
 
The George Alfred Davies registered Bham Jun qtr 1861 appears to be the son of James Davies and Elizabeth Peel.

In 1871 he is with parents in Bham, siblings listed - Julia, John William, James Henry, Mary & Louisa - match Davies/Peel registrations.
 
However that George Alfred Davies appears to marry a Maria Louisa Walker in 1895 which would seem to rule him out.
 
It seems a little suspicious that Elsie Ellen was born in Derby and baptised in Bromsgrove.

Not in itself unheard of but combined with the lack of a husband on the censuses or even a possible marriage registration makes me think that there was no George Alfred Davies and the children were illegitimate.

No way to prove it, just to disprove it if someone can.
 
The marriage to Benjamin Slim in 1915 may give the answer, what is Ellens status on the certificate
 
Ellen states she is a widow on the marriage certificate but then goes on to say Benjamin is also in the butcher trade when all other census says the Pub Trade!
 
MWS said:
It seems a little suspicious that Elsie Ellen was born in Derby and baptised in Bromsgrove.

Not in itself unheard of but combined with the lack of a husband on the censuses or even a possible marriage registration makes me think that there was no George Alfred Davies and the children were illegitimate.

No way to prove it, just to disprove it if someone can.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your information re the George Davies will look into those further when I sign up for Ancestry - Elsie is born in Derby & registered by license in Bromsgrove, she & Ellen are staying at the Red Lion Pub on the birth certificate & must stay in Bromsgrove as the christening is several months later.
I had a professional from Bromsgrove look up the christening record for me & he was the one who gave me the extra information that George Alfred Davies was from Moseley Road & a meat salesman - he is convinced this indicates that George was not made up as I too assumed that for several years.
It is very confusing because apparently a Davis married a Davies & the changes in spelling & the change from George Alfred to Alfred George also I can't find any of them in 1901 & the husband isn't there in 1891 - without the marriage or census records he could be any age & from anywhere - so I have been looking for someone in the meat trade as this crops up on all the certificates. Ellen's family were Methodists so the marriage may not be a straight forward C of E one & may turn up at some stage. Or I am ever hopefully to contact Ellen's descendants & hope they have the answer!
Thanks again for your help it is very helpful to have someone who can access the local records & at least point me in the right direction.
 
All marriages no matter of any religion or civil have to be recorded on the GRO index
Given that Ellen either Davis or Davies would marry between 1880 -1888, the GRO shows no marriage for either Ellen Davis or Ellen Davies to a George Alfred Davis or Davies or an Alfred George Davis or Davies.
She may well have been in a relationship with George a butcher but not married to him, often we have found that when the relationship ended the woman classed herself as a widow for census entries.
The George Alfred Davies who married Maria Louisa Walker in 1895.was a brasscaster and so was his father.
Another avenue you may want to follow is of George Frederick Davies born 20th Dec 1863 Wakefield ,Yorks, he is with his family in Wakefield in 1881 then I cannot find him until 1911 in Birmingham with his wife Agnes he is a meat salesman and is in Birmingham on 1939 census
Good Luck
 
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I have read that some marriages are registered at a local level & not been recorded at the main GRO index or it could have been incorrectly entered. One of my theories was that as she was living at the Red Lion in Bromsgrove when she registered the birth she may have been connected to them & she stayed in the area as that is where Elsie is christened. I think in 1881 there is a son George at the pub but he marries some one else. When Elsie is christened I would have thought that the information about the father would not have been recorded without some proof. Also what is puzzling why Elsie is born in Derby & yet as few days later is in Bromsgrove - was she living in Derby or passing through & baby came early?
As the family were strict Methodists & Ellen's nephew, my father was teetotal all his life it is ironic there are so many 'pub' connections & you wonder if 'butcher' is covering things, certainly on her marriage to Benjamin Slim he wasn't a butcher as someone pointed out in my original post some years back. Even her daughter Florence married into the Pub trade.
Ellen was either very clever or stupid if she wasn't married, why 'invent' a husband with such a close surname, forget how to spell it & twist the christen names around within the year. In 1891 when Ellen is with the 2 girls she is ' living on her own means' does this indicate she is not married to just a butcher who is away?
Here is a picture of my grandfather's wedding - Ellen is seated far right with Florence kneeling just below her - she doesn't look like someone who would have an affair & 2 illegitimate daughters !
Thanks for your help.
ErnestWhittemoremarr.jpg
 
  • Appreciate
Reactions: MWS
You're assuming she could read and write. A lot of people couldn't and most information was recorded by someone else. If she was asked her name and she said Ellen Davis, one person might spell it Davis and the next Davies. She wouldn't know.

When lying keep it simple. Move to a new place where no one knows you and you're worried what people will think tell them you're a widow or you're husbansd's working away. Who's to know.
 
I have both birth certificates & neither have a blank for the father's name which is the normal practice & both say under mother Ellen Davies formerly Davis - no confusion re the spelling there. if it wasn't for the fact I can't find the marriage it all looks normal - when Florence marries her father's name & occupation fits with the birth certificate & says 'deceased' . Ellen states she is a widow when she remarries. The spelling of the name Davis / Davies runs in order - It is Davies after the 'marriage', for the birth of the children & only reverts back to Davis on Florence's marriage in 1910 & Ellen's second marriage to Benjamin Slim in 1915.
She is still very much a part of the Davis family as is shown in the wedding photo & with them being very strict Methodists to have 2 illegitimate children might be unacceptable although her mother was illegitimate! Someone is taking the wedding photo & 2 husbands are missing Eliza's (William Collins - still alive ) & Ellen's.
Not all the siblings marriages are in Welford most are in Birmingham ( one in a Wesleyan chapel in Kings Norton ) so she isn't really hiding & when her sister Eliza Collin dies in 1939 in Selly Oak - 3 years after Ellen it is Florence Amy Barlow ( Ellen's daughter ) who registers the death.
I think Ellen may be hiding something but more to the fact Methodists, like my father are teetotal & she & Florence marry into families who run pubs! Also there isn't anything that unusual for someone to be known by the second name so perhaps George Alfred decided he wanted to be called Alfred George or drop the George all together.
Finding Ellen in 1891 took about 5 years the writing is so bad & she says she is born in Stratford not Welford which didn't help. Ironically there is someone living there from Bromsgrove so again a link to that place.
Unless I have corrected it then Ancestry & Find my Past have it incorrectly. I think I have 2 options to find someone who can find the family in 1901 or one of Florence's descendants comes forward to solve the mystery.
Thanks again for your suggestions
 
Ok.

If you haven't seen, there are a number of Barlow/Davis children registered but the only two that appear to be definitely their's are Frank Philip b 22 Sep 1911 and Margaret Florence b 18 Jan 1918.

Margaret marries twice. Firstly to an Alfred W Blunn, interestingly registered in Bromsgrove in 1940. He dies later the same year, death registered New Forest. Secondly to a Dennis G Ball in 1942 registered Bham.

Frank marries a Dorothy E Preston, late 1939 registered Bham
 
There are no Barlow/Preston children registered so Frank's a dead end.

There are no Blunn/Barlow children but there is a Lynne M Ball registered 1947 Bham, mmn Barlow. No way to be certain if she is Margaret's daughter.
 
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Checked the other Barlow/Davis children registered Bham/Aston up to 1930 - Thomas G, Eric G and Reginald D are somebody else's and George dies young. There are no Barlow/Davies children registered.

So it would seem that the only possible descendant's of Florence would be children of Lynne Ball.
 
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I have also done research into Florence's children & there were actually 3 - Frank Philip 1911-1995. Eric Gordon 1917-1976 & Margaret F Barlow 1918-1989 - I agree with your findings re their marriages so there may be no direct descendants so it may rely on me finding Ellen & Florence in 1901.
 
There's a baptism on familysearch for Eric Gordon Barlow and it gives his parents as Thomas and Clara.
 
I hadn't picked that information so thanks for that I didn't realise the records on the family search were so up to date most baptisms I looked up finished about 1850. I picked up Margaret from when she was with the family at the Bell Inn - I thought Eric was there too but I can't find the information at present to check, it may well have been just Frank. There does seem a big gap between the 2 children though it doesn't make much difference as I didn't find any children for Eric either!
I intend to subscribe to Ancestry shortly so see if anything new in the last year - I think they might have the Gretna Green records which are worth checking to see if Ellen married outside England & Wales which are the areas covered by the GRO - also have another go to see if I can find them on the 1901 census - I am on the Genealogist site which is free but it isn't much good for records other than census & I have found rather a load of errors in those records.
I might again try & find Florence's baptism - that is another one missing & I am sure if they christened Elsie they would have christened Florence.
 
hi brummiegirl...in the wedding photo i take it florence is wearing the light coloured hat sitting to the left of the little boy?? no sign of ellens other daughter elsie..

lyn
 
No Florence is the one sitting far right dressed in a dark colour - her mother Ellen is seated just above her. Florence was born in 1888 so is about 16 years old . The little girl in the white hat is Emily Eva Davis known as Eva she is one of Florence's cousins
Sadly Elsie died in 1893.
Any reason for you asking Lyn?
 
Birminghamgirl said:
No Florence is the one sitting far right dressed in a dark colour - her mother Ellen is seated just above her. Florence was born in 1888 so is about 16 years old . The little girl in the white hat is Emily Eva Davis known as Eva she is one of Florence's cousins
Sadly Elsie died in 1893.
Any reason for you asking Lyn?
Click to expand...

thanks for confirming...no reason really just curious....just found the burial record for elsie..

lyn
 
I think I have solved my mystery anyway Lyn - after explaining the certificates so much in the thread I was convinced Ellen was married how be it that I can't find the record, may be married abroad or outside England & Wales.
My next lead was to try once more to find them in the 1901 & this time thinking 'outside the box' I had found a possible for Florence Amy but is said born in Handsworth so I had dismissed it. Going back & spotting the parish of Bromsgrove ( where Elsie was christened ) Florence a visitor it made me look for Ellen on her own - I put in just Davies & Welford on Avon - it brought up what appears on the transcript as Eleanor M Davies & Welford incorrectly spelt but when I looked at the actual census I don't know where the transcriber got the second initial but it is Eleanor Davies so more than likely Ellen was misheard. She is a widow living in Coventry as a Housekeeper. There is only one possible death for a George Alfred Davies in Fulham 1892 age 48 which gives him a birth date of 1844 & ironically an Alfred George Davies is born 1844 Marylebone!
Certainly a line to follow - a good date of death as a year after the 1891 when Ellen & Florence are alone & he is possibly in London. If it is him then he is older than I had thought making him about 12 years older than Ellen - if I don't have any joy with the census then it is worth getting the death certificate. Ironically I found the death for Florence's husband in London when they lived in Birmingham so that too was not in a place I had imagined.
Fingers crossed my brick wall has been smashed after about 15 years!
Rosemary
 
Birminghamgirl said:
I started a thread when I first joined looking for the 1st husband of my great aunt Ellen Davis born 1865 in Welford on Avon.

Each year I come back to query & since my thread I have found out more information:

George (Alfred or H or T or A) Davies
When first born Elsie Ellen Davies was christened in Bromsgrove her father is given as George Alfred Davies of Moseley Road, Birmingham - meats salesman.I have found a possible person - in 1881 a George A Davies born Birmingham 1861 a butcher is living at 39 Hockley Hill with his parents
William Davies age 54 a japaner born Nantwich & Elizabeth Davies age 55 born London. ( 2 sites have him as George H or George T but it looks like a "A" to me & there is a birth for a George Alfred Davies in Birmingham in 1861)

I know by the time George's second daughter is born in 1888 he is calling himself Alfred George. The certificates I have originally say Davies but by the time Florence Amy is married she is Davis & in 1911 Ellen is a widow also back to the Davis spelling. ( I can't find them on the 1901 census but in 1891 Ellen (Davies) is with her 2 daughters living on her own means at 332 Witton Road Aston but no husband )

William Davies (George’s father)
Frustratingly I can find nothing on the William Davies family after 1881 apart from George's sister Sarah Ann who appears to marry a John A Davies who ironically is also a butcher but her daughter Sarah Ann Agnes Davies born 1878 Handsworth has a mother's maiden name of Applebie.
So in 1881 is Sarah a daughter-in-law or daughter? John was born 1865 so only 13 when Sarah's daughter was born. The 1891 census is the same Sarah Ann as she has the right DOB & is a japaner on both also her daughter is born 1878 in Handsworth on both.

On the family search I have found a William Davies christened in Nantwich on 30 Oct 1826 parents Nathaniel & Hannah.

Ellen Davies (George’s wife)
I seemed to be steeped in a Davies family who don't make any sense at all I think I found George Alfred b 1861 Birmingham in 1891 in London as Journeyman butcher but he says he is single , an error ? As this would fit as Ellen is alone with her daughters saying she is married. I also found a death in Birmingham in 1901 for an Alfred Davies of the right age again it fits as Ellen is a widow by 1911, I have a wedding photo of my grandfather with just Ellen & Florence ( Elsie sadly died young ) & no husband in 1904.

If anyone can make any sense of all this or have any suggestions it would be great. I intend to join Ancestry shortly to see if they have any hints which may be useful & the other thing would be to get the death certificate of Alfred Davies in 1910 - otherwise it is shelve it for another year & see what turns up!
Click to expand...
Hi there ..I have discovered my great grandfather was John Alfred Davis who married Amy Hall on 5th August 1918..John lived at 33 Hatchett Street
 
Gill Liverpool said:
Hi there ..I have discovered my great grandfather was John Alfred Davis who married Amy Hall on 5th August 1918..John lived at 33 Hatchett Street
Click to expand...
hi gill and welcome...if you use the search box there should be some old photos of hatchett st that maybe of interest to you

lyn
 
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