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Coin Dealer in Birmingham 1861

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
I have a father on a marriage cert John Harris as a Coin Dealer in 1861. The grooms address is Church Street (by victoria square) which I imagine may be a great location for a coin dealers, jewellers etc. The son Benjamin Harris is a Gold Beater. So assuming a jewellers for example would encompass both of those occupations. But I can't find any records for a Coin dealers or a jewellers matching either the name or the address around that date.

has anyone got any info please?

many Thanks

Lisa
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
Lisa
The 1862 Corporation directory (1862 was publication year, and details could refer to up to couple of years or so earlier) lists:

Benjamin Harris, gold beater , 93 Irving St
Benjamin Harris, jeweller ,72 Gt. Hampton St & 29 Union Passage
John Harris, gold cutter, 59 Little King st.

John Harris is not listed on the 1861 census at that address, the occupant being Thomas Hunter, but it was possibly a works address and Hunter lived above it.
Benjamin is listed at the same address in 1858 directory also, but not John (unless he had changed occupation completely).
But it would seem that the above John may not be the same one:
The 1861 census lists Benjamin as living at 93 Irving st with his widowed mother, Mary (80 years old) being a gold beater employing six men & 8 boys.
So it looks like his father is dead in 1861. Benjamin (gold beater) is still living with his widowed mother in 1851., and in 1841 Benjamin is still a gold beater living with his mother and his father is not there, but her condition is not listed, but I think it reads Ind., which I take to mean independent
 

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
PS Just reflecting on my post just now (which I can't actually see so maybe it didn't post correct?) about me saying it's doesn't say deceased on the marriage cert. I know that the wife's father Charles Cameron was absolutely deceased (died in 1847) & it doesn't say deceased against him either, so no way of knowing if he was alive or not. They were both 22 on cert so no need for fathers to be there, witnesses names don't mean anything to me at the moment Mary & George Bragg.
If it didn't post properly before I said thank you & Im going to re-try to get the church street census up as well to see if it gleens any info.
Thanks again
L
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
Between my post and yours of an hour ago, i can see no other post, so it looks like it did not post properly. I don't think whether a father is deceased is necessarily put on a certificate. I have just been on the two parts of the census for church st (nos 1-63) and can see no Harris.
 

brummie nick

master brummie
I found this John Harris on the 1851 census.

Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace
John HARRIS Head M 27 M Gilt & Plated Button Maker Birmingham----
Eliza HARRIS Wife M 24 F --- Birmingham----
Address: 89 New John St West, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2058 Folio: 339 Page: 52 FHL Film: 0332119
 

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
Thank you, I tried to post from my iphone & it obviously failed! but you got the gist of it anyway :)

I did find the Church Street census in the end last night (I had been looking in St Philips & of course its in St Pauls duh). I also couldn't see other names that have family connections even. But I did notice No 2 was a shop & no 25 was manufacturing which may be relevant (38 Lock Manufacturer, 34 Malthouse - I've classed as not relevant).

He wouldn't be the 1st member of our family to escape a census but annoyingly in this case I have no other way of confirming his mothers details. As I say folks previously had his birth as 1842 (Making his mother Sarah) but I'm not convinced as the father then is down as warehouse man which would seem a big leap from his job on the marriage cert to be likely. There are other Harris's in Birmingham at the time of a known family connection which I think Benjamin is related to but I cant find the link yet. (In our family if you think they're connected they usually are - I spent last week looking why my father was told to call someone uncle when he was little, after deciding he must have been the local money lender lol, I later managed to find that mystery uncle's uncle married my great Aunt (she was widowed & I'd not noticed). It was not obvious from the marriage cert because of her widowed family name but I recognised my great great grandfathers signature which sent me off in the right direction. Interestingly the 2nd husbands 1st wife was also a Harris, which again by family standards is likely to be the same family so I think I might divert & work on her for a bit & maybe I can get round the houses to Benjamin.

Thanks for all your help
 

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
Thank you, I'll have a mooch at that too. I also found a Benjamin Harris of the right age as a "visitor" in Woodcock Street. Right occupation but no parents he also has a Sarah with him 2 years younger (wrong age for future wife & I also already have her on 1861 census with her mother) obviously it could be his sister as they are both unmarried same surname would be logical. Don't recognise the names of who he was visiting so maybe do some work on them as well.

The tieing of the census to the marriage feels relevant as the census was taken on the 7th Apr & they got married in St Philips on the 22nd April. Sods law he moved house in those 2 weeks!!!

Thanks for your help

I found this John Harris on the 1851 census.

Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace
John HARRIS Head M 27 M Gilt & Plated Button Maker Birmingham----
Eliza HARRIS Wife M 24 F --- Birmingham----
Address: 89 New John St West, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2058 Folio: 339 Page: 52 FHL Film: 0332119
 

pjmburns

master brummie
The 1855 Post Office directory lists a Benjamin Harris as a gold beater at 97 Irving Street. By 1883 he is no longer lsited as a gold beater.
The 1861 census with Benjamin as a visitor lists his occupation as Gold Beater on the original sheet.

Janice
 

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
Benjamin sadly died very young in jan 1875. His wife & children till they grew, lived the rest of her life with her mother also widowed who lived to the grand age of 101. So it's a tiny window I have from the 1861 marriage till he dies I know. It wouldn't surprise me if he came up from London. The extended family was in London & his wife Sarah Cameron & family only arrived in 1847. & the rest of the family married's during the 1850's. We're real newbies from that point of view on any side of my family my earliest arrival in brum is 1847.




Thanks
Lisa
 

Astonian

gone but not forgotten
hi mike
Is it possible that you could get the listing for a coin dealer whom was listed and lved there on the premises i just cannot recall his name
he was well known in birmingham for donkeys years from the earliest i can recal is the fiftys i can only presume he was around before then
but thats my recollection from the very early 1950 and this shop and dwelling was on institute rd kings heath it was a corner shop of a road
which ran off institute rd kings heath birmingham 14 he also dealt with gold coinages along with all the foreign coins of the world with old english coins
may be we have some one else whom may be a sibbling to this family or even lived on institue rd as a neibour they was always listed in magerzines and the news papers regular many thanks astonian; alan;
 

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
That would be brilliant if possible & exists. It's such a niche market that even if not related might well have information. We have one other known lot if Harris's that were glass dealers (fancy) in Birmingham & coins etc in London before but I can't find a link at the moment to that branch. The other possibility I wondered if they might be part of the Harris family that became AE Harris then Harris & can't remember in about 1880. They were sheet metal but also famous for the medal regalia which in my mind has a certain connection between a gold beater & a coinologist? Thanks Lisa
 

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
A quick update: Signs say this was a family business as 3 of Benjamin's daughter's as far as I can see so far were Gold Leaf Cutters. Annie Harris 1881 Census Gold Leaf Cutter & Mary Maria & Amy Harris Gold Leaf Cutters on 1891 Census.
Thanks
Lisa
 

Astonian

gone but not forgotten
hi mike
many thanks for your valuable time in looking up at institute rd i will recheck the name of the rd when i go down there today passing
to my premises i know the shop eventualy turned to a grocers news agents and as done so for many years since then
i know the postion of the particular shop which is still standing and for the love nor money i just cannot recall the name of the people
i do beleive they operated some where else in brum before going to the kings heath shop i have been trying to rack my pea brain of just late the name of the family
i know in my heart and soul this family operated and they was always advertising in the old magerzine of the exchange and mart as well regular around the late fiftys
i will continue to try and come up with the name no matter how long it takes me ; i am like an old dog with a bone ; do not let go ;
thanks again mike alan Astonian ;;;;;;
 

pjmburns

master brummie
Lisa
I have checked the 1892 directory and neither Annie, Mary nor Amy are listed as gold cutters - this does not mean they didn't do that work but that they probably worked for someone else.

Janice
 

LisaMaryCameron

knowlegable brummie
Lisa
I have checked the 1892 directory and neither Annie, Mary nor Amy are listed as gold cutters - this does not mean they didn't do that work but that they probably worked for someone else.

Janice
Thanks you very much Mike, Janice & everyone for all your help. I shall keep mooching around & update for info if I find anything.
Rgds Lisa
 

Astonian

gone but not forgotten
Hi mike
Just to say I forgot to check out that rd i said I would and place the shop its only when I came back I realized I never checked the rd
And that I messed up the rd. I am thinking of. Is where the number 11 bus leaves the bust stop by the main church at kings heath
Then the bus turns left off the alcester rd and heads along the main rd as if you are going to swannhurst school rd
But as the bus turns off the kings heath red and bears left it stops by a car show room ,
When the bus pulls off it was the first or second shop on your left hand was where this shopwasi am trying to think of the name. Still
But it also had another shop some where in brum it could have been on broad street
So if any body can come up with the name of that rd then that's the rd I last seen that shop. The Coin dealer
I know there is an old coin dealer today not far from hall green railway station if you came out of hallgreen railway station
And walk up the rd on your right turn and get to the corner turn right and walk area yards you would come to this other old coin dealer
And I bet your last dollar you would get the name that I am thinking off
I shall be going that way in the. Next few days I will try and pop in and asked him. If he. An recall this old company
Best wishes Alan astonian,,,,,
 
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