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Book : Chamberlain And Cadbury

Interesting book comparing the “Two Titans” together. The author covers Chamberlain’s controversial time as Secretary of State for the Colonies, and Cadbury’s involvement with cocoa production in São Tomé and Príncipe.
 
The difficulties that I am finding when looking back at the histories of many important people of the past is precisely that it was the past. “They did things differently there.”

Casting aspersions upon the actions of past leaders of men won’t bring them back for a good thrashing, and choosing to ignore the good that may have been done because of the bad that may have been done strikes me to be a negative way of viewing life. Better to have a dispassionate evaluation of both aspects, give thanks for the good and use the bad as an example of how not to behave in your own life.

I do have to add, however, that while I am prepared to take this approach when such as Churchill or Bevan are concerned, I might struggle with Hitler or Stalin.
 
Not by a cadre of those whose only intent seems to be bordering upon revenge. I do not make excuses, I merely ask for the application of reason. Because it was not applied in the historical time does not mean it should not apply now.
 
I wouldnt like to give the impression that this book in any way concentrates on the controversial issues involving Two Titans. It is probably the opposite, and compares the many similarities and differences between them in a fresh way. However, unlike some biographers, the author does to some extent discuss these issues.

There is the current thread concerning the Chamberlain Clock. The BBC report that “As part of the project a researcher will also be employed to look at Chamberlain's role as Colonial Secretary and his involvement in the British Empire and a new information heritage information panel will be installed near the site.”

It will be interesting to see the new information panel.

Chamberlain clock restoration

heard today that they have started to remove the clock for a restoration job...great news https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-53654853
birminghamhistory.co.uk birminghamhistory.co.uk
 
Johnfromstaffs said:
The difficulties that I am finding when looking back at the histories of many important people of the past is precisely that it was the past. “They did things differently there.”

Casting aspersions upon the actions of past leaders of men won’t bring them back for a good thrashing, and choosing to ignore the good that may have been done because of the bad that may have been done strikes me to be a negative way of viewing life. Better to have a dispassionate evaluation of both aspects, give thanks for the good and use the bad as an example of how not to behave in your own life.

I do have to add, however, that while I am prepared to take this approach when such as Churchill or Bevan are concerned, I might struggle with Hitler or Stalin.
Click to expand...
 
I have to agree with much of what you say, Johnfromstaffs. Attempting to erase memories of the past by removing statues such as that of Cecil Rhodes because much of what the individuals did or stood for is less palatable or politically correct within the context of current social thinking cannot change the past but merely obscures it from future generations who are then less likely to challenge it. It could in my view even be seen as a form of 'disinformation'. Would we wish to remove the statue of Queen Victoria from Victoria Square in the centre of Birmingham because she was head of an empire which is now seen by many as oppressive, opportunist and exploitative? History can be re-written and distorted and certainly has frequently been so in the past in order to pursue power, domination, the high moral ground etc; the Romans were quite good at it. Let us beware - particularly with the power of modern social media in mind - that we do not enter the world of Orwell's '1984' - or is it too late?

datadave
 
Johnfromstaffs said:
The difficulties that I am finding when looking back at the histories of many important people of the past is precisely that it was the past. “They did things differently there.”

Casting aspersions upon the actions of past leaders of men won’t bring them back for a good thrashing, and choosing to ignore the good that may have been done because of the bad that may have been done strikes me to be a negative way of viewing life. Better to have a dispassionate evaluation of both aspects, give thanks for the good and use the bad as an example of how not to behave in your own life.

I do have to add, however, that while I am prepared to take this approach when such as Churchill or Bevan are concerned, I might struggle with Hitler or Stalin.
Click to expand...
John, completely agree with your position. The past is the past and VERY different for all kinds of reasons!
 
datadave said:
I have to agree with much of what you say, Johnfromstaffs. Attempting to erase memories of the past by removing statues such as that of Cecil Rhodes because much of what the individuals did or stood for is less palatable or politically correct within the context of current social thinking cannot change the past but merely obscures it from future generations who are then less likely to challenge it. It could in my view even be seen as a form of 'disinformation'. Would we wish to remove the statue of Queen Victoria from Victoria Square in the centre of Birmingham because she was head of an empire which is now seen by many as oppressive, opportunist and exploitative? History can be re-written and distorted and certainly has frequently been so in the past in order to pursue power, domination, the high moral ground etc; the Romans were quite good at it. Let us beware - particularly with the power of modern social media in mind - that we do not enter the world of Orwell's '1984' - or is it too late?

datadave
Click to expand...
datadave..........It seems like a global thing. The same is happening in the US. History is history, we should learn from it not try to rewrite it!
 
I quite agree - but it also important to bear in mind that historical reporting, analysis and synthesis is inevitably skewed by the socio-cultural, political and experiential background of the individuals who write it. Even with the best will and greatest awareness, the writing of history is never absolutely pure.

Datadave
 
datadave said:
I quite agree - but it also important to bear in mind that historical reporting, analysis and synthesis is inevitably skewed by the socio-cultural, political and experiential background of the individuals who write it. Even with the best will and greatest awareness, the writing of history is never absolutely pure.

Datadave
Click to expand...
 
datadave said:
I quite agree - but it also important to bear in mind that historical reporting, analysis and synthesis is inevitably skewed by the socio-cultural, political and experiential background of the individuals who write it. Even with the best will and greatest awareness, the writing of history is never absolutely pure.

Datadave
Click to expand...
AND exactly the same can be said for today! That is the constant in all of this............
 
It seems very odd that the retiring President of the USA is a right leaning business person, but a lot of his support is coming from those who would, in this country, be viewed as naturally belonging to the left. Again, “the USA is a different place”, but I wonder how they will write this up in the future.
 
Johnfromstaffs said:
It seems very odd that the retiring President of the USA is a right leaning business person, but a lot of his support is coming from those who would, in this country, be viewed as naturally belonging to the left. Again, “the USA is a different place”, but I wonder how they will write this up in the future.
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Really...........Not sure where you got that idea, maybe from the Guardian that is so far left. The retiring President is anything but left leaning!
It will be interesting to see how it gets written, much of it will depend on who is paying the writer because in this day and age is how it works!
 
I don’t see the removal of these statues as an attempt to erase memories. I see it as an attempt to “out” the individuals who have erected monuments that glorify themselves in the way they present their past. These people in the real world they had profiteered from what we now see as unethical, exploitative, and unscrupulous practices.

I have mixed views about vandalising our heritage, however I do believe that a balance story should be told: if we can at all define a balance story of the past.

The actions of the people involved in topping these statues have certainly bought the elephant out of the room and left others wondering how to get the toothpaste back in the tube.
 
Morturn said:
I don’t see the removal of these statues as an attempt to erase memories. I see it as an attempt to “out” the individuals who have erected monuments that glorify themselves in the way they present their past. These people in the real world they had profiteered from what we now see as unethical, exploitative, and unscrupulous practices.

I have mixed views about vandalising our heritage, however I do believe that a balance story should be told: if we can at all define a balance story of the past.

The actions of the people involved in topping these statues have certainly bought the elephant out of the room and left others wondering how to get the toothpaste back in the tube.
Click to expand...
Mort, I agree with your basic premise however I wonder how much of the vandalizing is because they can. It seems that few of the vandals know this history to start with. If there is a true cause then lets discuss and do it properly rather than acting like a third world country! (which we are)
 
Richard, I think my post must have been a bit too cryptic. What confuses me is why people like redundant rust belt workers, miners and folk who have suffered at the hands of those in power for the last many years seem to have fallen for “make America great again”, coming from the mouth of such an obvious liar.

As far as the Guardian goes, the last time I bought a copy was when a teenager.
 
Richarddye said:
Mort, I agree with your basic premise however I wonder how much of the vandalizing is because they can. It seems that few of the vandals know this history to start with. If there is a true cause then lets discuss and do it properly rather than acting like a third world country! (which we are)
Click to expand...

I agree that this is vandalism to destroy these monuments and it should not happen. However, I think it’s reasonable to show that what these people did were not do the great deeds they credit themselves with.

An alternative may to the remove them and return them intact back to the family’s or descendants. They can then place in their own private collections and ensure that write ups show a balanced, warts and all view.
 
Johnfromstaffs said:
Richard, I think my post must have been a bit too cryptic. What confuses me is why people like redundant rust belt workers, miners and folk who have suffered at the hands of those in power for the last many years seem to have fallen for “make America great again”, coming from the mouth of such an obvious liar.

As far as the Guardian goes, the last time I bought a copy was when a teenager.
Click to expand...

John lets just take some care here as to not invoke a political rant.

What we must remember here is that the people who vote for what we consider to be undesirable leaders often do so because they are reacting to their immediate environment.

When you couple this with the fact that some countries have an either state controlled or a privately controlled media that will dance to the tunes of the people with money and power and not in the interests of the citizens.

Peoples belief systems therefore don’t necessarily rely on facts or truths, quite often simple slogans, a common enemy and hollow promises are all that are needed to radicalise a population.

I quite enjoy listening to the (translated) speeches of Adolf Hitler to see how content free they are. Look how he linked this to the media, the common enemy and the promise of great things to come.
 
I had no intention of so doing. The intention was to draw a comparison between the past being a different place and the USA being a different place.
 
Back to the thread title, the side by side comparisons of Chamberlain and Cadbury. Much has been written about the Two Titans but not much about the Cadbury family's involvement in eugenics.
 
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