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Castle Site Near Camden St

mikejee

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some time ago I remember a query on the forum about the possible ruins of a castle in the Soho/Keyhill area of Birmingham. I cannot now find the relevant thread, or anything in my records (though they should be there somewhere in the depths). However Gutenberg has just put online an issue of Notes & Queries (vol 5 no 125, 20.3.1852) at https://www.gutenberg.org/files/40910/40910-h/40910-h.htm#Page_271 in which the following appears:
[h=4]Birmingham Antiquities. [/h]—I wish to put on record in your journal a fact concerning the antiquities of Birmingham. There is a street in this borough, called Camden Street, which after crossing Worstone Lane, acquires the name of Lower Camden Street. On the right-hand side of Lower Camden Street (as you go from Camden Street), is some pasture ground, bounded on one side by a [272] stream called Chub-brook, which formerly flowed into the old Hockley Pool. This pasture ground shows the evident traces of a moat, and the foundations of several walls of a large building. I apprehend this is the spot referred to in Hutton's History of Birmingham, p. 254., fourth edition:"The lord Clinton and his lady seem to have occupied the Manor-house, and Sir Thomas (de Birmingham), unwilling to quit the place of his affections and of his nativity, erected a castle for himself at Worstone; where, though the building is totally gone, the vestiges of its liquid security are yet complete."As the field will probably be built on in a short time, I wish to identify the spot referred to by Hutton.
Below is a part of Pigott smiths c 1824 map of the area. Lower Camden st is the part of Camden st north of what was then called Warstone lane, but is now Icknield st. It largely did not exist in 1824, but I have roughly marked its later position in red. I have marked what must be the pasture referred to in green.Also below is the OS c1890 map, in which I have estimated where the pasture was, and marked it in yellow., between what is now Camden st, New Spring st and Ellen st. A small part is under a car park . Trouble is we don’t know whether that contains any castle remains, else Time Team could have a poke around !

map_c_1890_showing_pasture_where__castle_might_be.jpg


Pigot_smith_c_1824_with_lower_camden_st_and_pasture_area_added__.jpg


 
Sounds interesting Mike!!
Time Team in Birmingham was repeated the other day, it wasn't too far away either, hope they will consider it!!!!
rosie.
 
Mikejee, that might have been me regarding the castle. In the 80s I attended a night class course in Birmingham called 'Re-writing the history of Birmingham' and in one of the classes we were told that Key Hill was originally called Castle Hill, which suggested there was a castle within the area. But, the following week we were told to completely ignore what we had been told the week before as it was not for common knowledge!!
 
Carolina
Yes, it was you. Now I remember the story about you being told to forget it
 
This is interesting. If anyone tells me it's 'not common knowledge' naturally I want to know more. Wonder why it was covered up? Viv.
 
Probably some academic hoped to write a paper on it and didn't want it spread about - mind you , didn't look as if he did write it up, else i'm sure we would have heard of it. As a check I have just done a search, but the only reference I could find was the first ppost in this thread. Shows google keeps up to date with us
 
Mikejee I have googled him and he has moved to France but had 2 books out. During the 2 year course our 'homework' was to do research on a buildings etc of our choice. My first one was the Pen Factory (where my husband at the time had his jewellery business) and for the 2nd year I did the building on the corner of Reservoir and Monument Road (where I was working). Some other people did Lunar Society, 1penny allotments in Edgbaston. I wonder if any of the information was included within his books. I still have the original paperwork from the course.
 
Thank you for both investigating & sharing with us, Mike. There are so many references to there having been a castle in the Hockley area that I always considered that there must be some basis in fact.
Shirley
 
Mikejee I have found out my original paperwork and I quote

'Historian Sarah Wager had identified a Dark Age Birmingham land-unit with much the same dimensions as the present city. The only significant exclusions are Kings Norton and Northfield, which would suggest as northern subsidiaries of, say, Bromsgrove and Sutton on the same grounds a southern subsidiary of Lichfield or Tamworth.

The administrative centre of the Birmigham unit must be west of Aston subsidiary and therefore not on the Bull Ring site. Handsworth is ruled out, although a possibility that the name Witton reflects the presence of Romano-British vicus near Holford needs investigation.

Wager's preferred solution is an earlier Birmingham core settlement near where the Roman Road crossed Hockley Brook"
 
Thats new to me, Carolina. Thank you for posting. By "west of Aston" does this mean the moated manor house or a site further out?
 
Thanks Carolina. Looked up Sarah Wagner and she seems nowadays to be mainly interested in wildlife trusts. Doesn't seem to have progressed with her earlier proposals.
Mike
 
Bordesleyexile, I really dont know because another part it is quoted - Aston means East Town. If you want to you can IM me with your email address and I will scan and send it to you, its only 4 pages, but it has my notes wrote on it and you will see I have actually wrote on it East of what?
 
I have a couple of questions.

Firstly, what period of history is the castle thought to be from?

Secondly, does anyone know if Icknield Street Hockley is considered to be part of the Roman road that today, is roughly located on/alongside Kingstanding Road (formerly Holly Lane) and which thereafter heads off to Sutton Park? Viv.
 
Thanks Caroline. If Sir Thomas de Birmingham built the castle, roughly what date would that be?

Mike, your help please. Can you tell if the Roman road and Hockley Brook cross on this 1834 map? Can't quite seem to pinpoint it, or is it off the map ? Viv.


image.jpeg
 
Done a bit more research. According to Bill Dargue's site there's a document of 1390 which refers to Sir Thomas de Birmingham's 'castle' at 'Warstone near the Sandpits'. So we have a rough date, although we can't know from this what date it was actually built. But we know from post #1 that he built it himself. Viv.
 
According to Bill dargue castle is undated but a moat was visible around vyse street warstone lane area in 18th century
 
Viv
Hockley Brook was the boundary of Birmingham and Aston Manor, and so the dotted line would be the Brook (have emphasised it in blue). Have marked the approximate roman Road (assuming it did run along Icknield st) in red.
 

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Smashing Mike. And thanks too Carolina.

I think in the 1300s (and most probably before that time) this would have been a key position for a fortified/moated 'castle'. It was close to the old Icknield Road giving access to the North. Hutton describes the road as passing "by the observatory in Lady Wood Lane, crossing the Dudley Road at Sandpits, and along Worstone Lane".

There were also a number of mills (eg Holford Mill) on the River Tame (Hockley Brook joining the Tame). Therefore in terms of trading, movement of goods etc and the economy of Birmingham the castle would most likely have exerted some control over these, as well as being located right on the boundary with Aston Manor.

I assume the Brook would also have offered defence for the building by suppling water to the moat. Viv.
 
Now found this old thread which Lyn (Astoness) started
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/castle-near-ickneild-st-warstone-lane.32468/

Lyn's extract from Pye suggests the bricks were heavily burnt and some were re-used in buildings around the spot. If it was built of brick was it a 'castle' in the usual sense of the word or a moated/fortified house? Or maybe 'bricks' was a term also used to describe stones? Either way it suggests the 'castle' may have suffered a fire. Any ideas how much 20 sq perches was?
Viv.
 
Hi
Looking at some peoples thoughts on the forum regarding a castle I am inclined to go with the Camden street
Suggestion and the sand Pitts close bye to Camden street which there is sand Pitts today
Summer hill lane and due to the fact as a person whom played on the subject of the sand Pitts
Being and remaking up high on blue bricks and also , but image to say I do not know when the named cleaning business had move onto this land directly and highly close to the sand Pitts it,self
Called the London and midlands cleaning. Contractors there name was painted in a paint
In big bold and large writing on the highest wall I have ever seen with ladder reaching high as 500 Feet high
Prompt up against it which had been left there for decades from the early 1900s
And there was no office building there either but a big pair of gates about forty foot high doubled
At the very first I ever clapped eyes on this section which was in the early fifty,s
I thought blimmy, that a huge wall personaly to myself around the bottom end of Camden street
It was called the parade, and there was nelson street school and a pub called the kingedward on the parade
There was a bridge under the road at the bottom of Camden street
Running across the road from left to right looking left on Camden street it would be running water coming from the sand Pitts direction
Nelson street was directly facing the sand Pitts and another huge type of building which
Came across to me as a one time appearance as a castle which was surrounded by water
Was when you walked up over to nelson street at the very top you could have said its old Ladywood lane
Walking back in the direction of ickneild street and war stone lane in 1800S
The features of this building gave you that impression of an old castle in the years of history of that period
This huge building was later used by a wood timber yard with all high huge walls surrounding it
With the cut out design windows going up very high on the walls
It was a timber merchants bay for the barges unloading goods of merchised goods as well
I think if you walked up sheepcote street you could see this building way back in time from the channel bridge
If you looked back to nelson street. And the sand Pitts
And when you think of nelson street and the name of the parade and the kingedwards pub all
Military in one form or another after all a castle with soldiers of the roman days
Best wishes I also will probe on this one as I think it is very interesting Astonian,,,, Alan,,,
 
I found this from a post by Mikejee in 2012!! It heading is A Castle In Camden Street, I think. Shame Mick Aston is no longer with us, I'm sure he would definitely liked to have a 'poke around'
[h=4]Birmingham Antiquities. [/h]—I wish to put on record in your journal a fact concerning the antiquities of Birmingham. There is a street in this borough, called Camden Street, which after crossing Worstone Lane, acquires the name of Lower Camden Street. On the right-hand side of Lower Camden Street (as you go from Camden Street), is some pasture ground, bounded on one side by a [272] stream called Chub-brook, which formerly flowed into the old Hockley Pool. This pasture ground shows the evident traces of a moat, and the foundations of several walls of a large building. I apprehend this is the spot referred to in Hutton's History of Birmingham, p. 254., fourth edition:"The lord Clinton and his lady seem to have occupied the Manor-house, and Sir Thomas (de Birmingham), unwilling to quit the place of his affections and of his nativity, erected a castle for himself at Worstone; where, though the building is totally gone, the vestiges of its liquid security are yet complete."As the field will probably be built on in a short time, I wish to identify the spot referred to by Hutton.
Below is a part of Pigott smiths c 1824 map of the area. Lower Camden st is the part of Camden st north of what was then called Warstone lane, but is now Icknield st. It largely did not exist in 1824, but I have roughly marked its later position in red. I have marked what must be the pasture referred to in green.Also below is the OS c1890 map, in which I have estimated where the pasture was, and marked it in yellow., between what is now Camden st, New Spring st and Ellen st. A small part is under a car park . Trouble is we don’t know whether that contains any castle remains, else Time Team could have a poke around !

map_c_1890_showing_pasture_where__castle_might_be.jpg


Pigot_smith_c_1824_with_lower_camden_st_and_pasture_area_added__.jpg



mikejee, Oct 6, 2012 Report
#1 Like + Quote Reply
 
Last edited:
This from Wikipedia Viv
The rod or perch or pole is a surveyors tool and unit of length equal to 51⁄2 yards, 161⁄2 feet, ... In the 13th century perches were variously recorded in lengths of 18 feet (5.49 m), 20 feet (6.1 m), 22 feet (6.71 m) and 24 feet ....
 
When Pye refers to bricks being heavily burnt, I'm not sure if he meant that they had been in a fire, or whether they had been made at a high temperature, which would have resulted in a harder, more dense brick. One other point is that bricks were not made so much after the Romans left and were only becoming popular in the uk for buildings such as castles in the early years of the 15th century (https://www.propertydrum.com/articles/20090330_21) , Tattinshall castle (1431 ) being one of the very first . Thus any castle by de Bermingham would have been one of the very earliest brick castles.
 
Some useful information coming out from members.

The 'castle' must have been built before Thomas de B was born, so not built by him. To recap, it was mentioned in a document of 1390 and we now know Thomas died in 1473. He would have been too young to have a castle built for himself by 1390. If for example he built the castle when he was say 20, he'd have lived to 103! So alternatively there might have been an old castle on the site before Thomas built his building whether it be a castle or Manor House.

Do we have any photos of the area Astonian describes in post #29?
Viv
 
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