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Carters White Horse

Dickthomas

Brummie babby
My 2 x great grandfather stayed at a hostelry somewhere around Birmingham Heath in 1835 - 1845 according to his diaries. He referred to this as Carters or the White Horse or Carters White Horse. Possibly Carter was the "landlord". Does anyone know anything about this inn/pub, particularly where exactly it was and whether it is still in existence.

When he was staying there he used to visit his uncle Thomas Townshend (canal and railway contractor) who lived initially at Shireland Hall (I know where that was - Smethwick) but he later moved to "Heath Cottage" on Birmingham Heath. Has anyone come across this house ?

Thanks
Dick
 

Lloyd

master brummie
'Birmingham Heath' was an area to the east of what is now Winson Green Road, bordered to the north by Lodge Rd and to the south by Dudley Rd. The institutions Western Road Workhouse (later extended as Dudley Road Hospital), All Saints Hospital and Winson Green Prison were built on it.

Shireland Hall stood to the south of Cape Hill, the present Shireland Road runs through what would have been the western edge of the grounds, so the two places were quite close. I'm not aware of a 'White Horse' pub in the area now, but there could well have been one that long ago.
 

mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dick
You say “around” birmingham heath . The 1810 Commissioner’s map would seem to indicate that it included the entire area between Soho road and Dudley Road down as far as Key hill, slightly larger than the area defined by Lloyd. “Around” the area could give an even larger area.
I have looked at the directories 1833 -1845 . Unfortunately the earlier ones don’t always list the name of the establishment, but I was unable to find any White Horse that was in the immediate area. I did however in 1841 find:
Carter John Wells, vict. White Horse, 30 Congreve St
He was preceded there by a Carter, W.T. in 1833 . This is probably a bit far away to really be considered (even as around the area), but I mention it for your information
Mike
 

Dickthomas

Brummie babby
Hi Lloyd,

Thanks a million - I am slowly gathering pictures and docs relating to Thomas Townshend and this is great.

Cheers,
Dick
 

motorman-mike

Brum visitor who stayed.
There was also the White Horse in Wednesbury which was in Staffordshire at one time and only a direct tram ride to Birmingham via West Bromwich.
 

Dickthomas

Brummie babby
Many thanks Motorman-Mike - although when my 2 x great grandfather was making these journeys (1835-45) I doubt there were trams.

Kind regards,
Dick
 

Dickthomas

Brummie babby
Further to all the help I have had with this query I am tempted to think the most likely was the White Horse in Congreve St. Although it isn't that close to Smethwick and Birmingham Heath, it would have been convenient for my 2 x great grandfather. More often than not he was making a journey from Halifax to Warwick which he did regularly to visit various farms around there buying wool. In the early days of the diaries he goes by coach - latterly by train via Manchester to Birmingham and in both cases Congreve St. would presumably have been convenient as a place to stay en route. My original thought was that he would have stayed close to his uncle but visits to uncle would presumably not have been as important as being close to the trains and coaches seeing that he was just passing through.

Does anyone know if there are photos of the White Horse - I understand that there isn't even a Congreve Street any longer but that it was roughly where Congreve Place is today.

Thanks again for all your help
Kind regards,
Dick
 

Heartland

master brummie
The thread on Thomas Townshend is related to both canal and railway construction. He had a large and extended family, but most of the family threads disappear after his death in 1846.

He is given as both an engineer and contractor and he certainly had an impact on West Midlands transport constructing the New Main Line, of the BCN, for Thomas Telford, the Walsall Lock Branch and parts of the Tame Valley for James Walker. In between his firm had the responsibility to make a southern part of the Grand Junction Railway. Yet his final years were marred through the death of his wife and a complicated bankruptcy battle that lasted between 1837 and 1843, which affected not only him, but his family including son Thomas. Son Richard was working as a contractor and engineer afterwards and is shown living in Tranmere on the 1851 census.
 

RobT

Acemeccanoman
Further to all the help I have had with this query I am tempted to think the most likely was the White Horse in Congreve St. Although it isn't that close to Smethwick and Birmingham Heath, it would have been convenient for my 2 x great grandfather. More often than not he was making a journey from Halifax to Warwick which he did regularly to visit various farms around there buying wool. In the early days of the diaries he goes by coach - latterly by train via Manchester to Birmingham and in both cases Congreve St. would presumably have been convenient as a place to stay en route. My original thought was that he would have stayed close to his uncle but visits to uncle would presumably not have been as important as being close to the trains and coaches seeing that he was just passing through.

Does anyone know if there are photos of the White Horse - I understand that there isn't even a Congreve Street any longer but that it was roughly where Congreve Place is today.

Thanks again for all your help
Kind regards,
Dick
There is a photo here of the White Horse, Congreve street
 
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