Brummie Ghosts

[Nicholas]

but one of the best-known Brum ghost-stories is the Haunted Telephone Kiosk in Station Road, Erdington. It's supposed to be the ghost of a woman desperately phoning for an ambulance for her sick child (or so I've heard). I knew someone who lived in Station Road ages ago and she claimed to have seen the ghost.

The other one I remember hearing about is the ghostly form that's been seen around the main entrance to Witton Cemetery in Moor Lane, supposedly the victim of a road accident.

Hiya Big Gee,

The phone box story is indeed a well known tale - though the details concerning 'who' the woman was (why she was there and so on) appear to have been something which has been 'tagged onto' the tale over the years to add a little flavour to it. I've also heard that it was a woman desperately trying to call the fire brigade because her family were burning to death in their nearby house, etc.....

The original sighting of the figure concerned a couple of people standing outside the phone box, waiting to use it while a woman with a red (or pink) cardigan occupied it. One of the people waiting grew a little fed up and, upon opening the door of the box to complain, found that there was no one inside it after all. (Off the top of my head, I get a feeling that the person opening the door to complain was recorded as being a trainee priest, or some such - though I'd have to check the details??)

The ghost of Witton Cemetery is said to be the ghost of a young, handsome man in RAF uniform, for some reason(?) no one knows why he appears there, but he's been seen crossing the road outside the cemetery and heading off in the direction of the nearby canal......

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[Nicholas]

we were told that her ghost had allegedly been seen in a road adjacent to the one we were then currently in.......

Ooops - have to correct myself here...... It wasn't Lady Scott herself - now I come to check my notes - but the phantom coach which has been associated with the area around Great Barr Hall!!!!!

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[mike-g]

Slightly outside Birmingham, since the M6T road has been opened there have been several reports of a troop of Roman soldiers marching across the road near Wall; they are seen from the waist up the rest of the body appears to be in the road

 

[badger]

I'm a sceptic.......but with an open mind..as I feel more comfortable with that rather than believing there is nothing after death. (no proof either way)
But a story related to me by my Brother in law who was a security guard at cadburys, was of an apparition in one of the upstairs canteens (I think)
he called out to challenge this "person" and he dissapeared. A colleague had the same thing happen except the "person came towards him, and "past" him, although apparently there was no room to pass. The Colleague was found collapsed and white haired and was retired soon after.
(could be just a story but my brother in law is not the type to make things up.)

 

[Jayell]

When I was growing up at Soho House (then a hotel) in Handsworth, many stranged things used to happen. Soho had been the home of Matthew Bolton who lived there from 1766 to 1809. He leased the land in Handsworth in 1761, and improved the house that he acquired on it, over the years of his occupation. The most famous story is the one of the coach and horses that was occasionally heard coming up the driveway and stopping outside the front door. I never heard it, but both my Mom and Dad did, but it was just the sound of the horses hooves and carriage they heard - they never saw anything.

Mom also said she was ironing once, late at night when everyone else had gone to bed, so it would be after midnight I would think. When she heard a low groaning noise. She was so frightened she dashed upstairs to bed with the rest of us. She did say later that it might have been one of the hotel guests snoring, but I wonder ...

As a child I would often experience the feeling of someone else being in a room with me, when I was alone. A feeling so strong of someone watching me that it would almost overcome me, I would have to get out of the room. The most scary thing that happened was when my friends and I decided to make a Ouija (weegie) board and see what would happen. We set it up in our sitting room at the hotel, and the upturned glass on the board kept wizzing around and mostly stopped with a message for me. I thought the others were messing around until all of a sudden a shock went right through me - it was like an electric shock that went from the top of my head right down the left side of my body to my feet. I jumped up screaming, and we all ran out of the room. Needless to say I have never experimented with this again !

Many little incidents occurred like those happened while we lived there, perhaps too many to be coincidental.

When the house was being restored by Birmingham Museums & Art Gallery, we were privileged to be shown around it some months before it opened to the public - it had been stripped right down. In the room next to our sitting room had been a boarded up fireplace. When it was opened up, they found a besom in the corner of the fireplace - to ward off witches !! Our sitting room was supposed to be the site of the original building/or warriner's hut on the Heath.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

 

[Nicholas]

But a story related to me by my Brother in law who was a security guard at cadburys

Not too long ago, we'd been negotiating with Cadbury's for an investigation of their factory, but all of the supposedly haunted sections had actually been demolished ages ago!! Pity I hadn't heard your Brother in laws story previously Badger - then we might have had something to work with!!

Judy - I do envy your time at Soho House!! What an incredible building.... I belive Matthew Boulton was a member of the Lunar Society and, as such for that point in time, would have attended meeting at (the allegedly haunted) Great Barr Hall mentioned elsewhere in this thread.....

It would be nice to think that the Soho House 'Coach' may well be the same phantom vehicle that is associated with Great Barr Hall too - given the (albeit tentative) connections between these two sites?

Regards - and thanks for sharing to you both.

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[Lloyd]

It's as easy to poo-poo things we don't understand as it is to make a financial killing out of them. I keep an open mind, only because when I was young the house I lived in had some unexplained noises, including the sound of someone coming up the stairs, opening my bedroom door and walking across the room very late at night. The stopped if I put a light on or made a sound, but I heard them a couple of times. Very scary the first time, but strangely not after that. About three times in ten or eleven years it happened.

 

[Nicholas]

Too true Lloyd - though there is a big difference between being 'open minded' and 'downright gullible'...... the latter being the sort of people who would happily swallow the word of Donald Ryles PhD and his ilk!!

My scepticism is generally aimed at the paranormal research culture itself, to be honest - as this currently does more damage to the general subject than anything else......

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[claire-brum71]

Come on folks - surely there are some more ghost stories out there????

Has anyone seen anything come up in the local press lately, for example?

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

Well i have to say i was shocked to see a group on Facebook inviting people to attend a book signing by Richard Felix (Most Haunted) at the Cock Inn at Rubery... My cousin worked there for years and never had anything happen... Apparently it gets a mention in his newbook as being the most haunted Pub in Birmingham... I find that very hard to believe but i could be wrong?? Maybe someone knows something i dont lol

Oh and My dad worked at Triplex for years and he had so many experiences there, apparently they have loads of ghosts there, he's not a believer and very sceptical, but even he had to admit something was going on that he couldn't explain

 

[Nicholas]

Thanks for the reply Claire-Brum.....

Personally, I'd urge people to take no notice of Felix whatsoever.... All he seems interested in doing is becoming more wealthy and famous, sadly, at the cost of this subject.......

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[claire-brum71]

Thanks for the reply Claire-Brum.....

Personally, I'd urge people to take no notice of Felix whatsoever.... All he seems interested in doing is becoming more wealthy and famous, sadly, at the cost of this subject.......

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

Well like i said, my Cousin worked there for years, she was the Manager at one point .. if it was haunted she would have said, i do think personally he's just 'laying it on' and the pub's onto a money spinner lol Personally i'd love to do a ghost hunt, i think the Media hype it up for ratings etc, but personally in my family lots of our deceased always come back and visit us.. my mom has a dream of my Grandad when there is going to be trouble and we get the usual pictures flying off walls for no reason, taps turning on when there will be a death... Some people will say it's nonsense but my eldest son saw my Grandad whilst at my Nan's house and he wasn't alive when he was born, the pics of my Grandfather at my Nans house on show are all of him when he was younger in his army uniform, my nan showed him a pic of my Grandfather when he was in his 60's and my son said yeah that's the man who was sat on the bed Nan.. explain that!! because i can't.. i too only have an Army pic of my Grandad on display at my house so how would my son have known what he looked like... i can't work it out lol

 

[mariew]

The same thing happened to us, my grandson was 2 years old when my mom passed away, but about 12 months later I was looking at photos and I said to my grandson do you remember great nanny Gwen, and he said yes she plays in my bedroom with my cars and lorries, well me and my daughter just looked at each other in shock.

 

[Nicholas]

i do think personally he's just 'laying it on' and the pub's onto a money spinner lol

Oooh - that's very cynical Claire........ but very true too!!! There is a heck of a lot of that sort of thing going around these days, unfortunately......

I visited a particular pub in Sutton a few years back and, asking about their resident ghost, received something of a 'frosty' reception......

A little puzzled and crestfallen, I excused myself and made to leave, but the landlady called me back and apologised: "I'm sorry," she said, "but we had a ghosthunter in here a couple of months back who wanted to use the place for a DVD he was making......" He'd apparently created a bit of fuss at the site - moving things around and so on - and eventually left the premises with a promise of a free copy of the DVD (to the landlady) when it came out......

As you can guess - the DVD never appeared..... And I'll bet you could guess who the 'ghosthunter' was too!!!???

Re. the Cock Inn - we have the same sort of thing happening in Himley / Gornal with the Crooked House pub..... a very popular site these days with investigative groups. My cousin was barmaid there for some years during the 70's and she never mentioned anything about ghosts. Of course, nowadays, it's regarded as the Black Country version of the Amityville Horror house!!!

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[claire-brum71]

The same thing happened to us, my grandson was 2 years old when my mom passed away, but about 12 months later I was looking at photos and I said to my grandson do you remember great nanny Gwen, and he said yes she plays in my bedroom with my cars and lorries, well me and my daughter just looked at each other in shock.

Oh life, i wouldnt have known what say mariew lol My Eldest when he was a kid used to sit in my mom's kichen chatting away and laughing at the clock on the wall... said to my Step Dad he's lost the plot every time he's here he is drawn to that clock.. he said that was his late wife's clock, i swear he was talking to her! I saw my Nanna Rose she's in a icture page 21 our parents parents.. she had passed when i was about 2 i think, i'd never seen any pictures of her up until now, I was really ill and they thought i had meningitius, this lady was stroking my head saying there there t'll be ok... i said to my mom an hour later when she came in who was that you sent to sit with me.. she said i didn't... so i described the lady and she said it was my Nan... next day i woke up right as rain haha Strange stuff is afoot lol

But, they do say children are more suseptable to seeing ghosts then adults, i think it's true

 

[claire-brum71]

Oooh - that's very cynical Claire........ but very true too!!! There is a heck of a lot of that sort of thing going around these days, unfortunately......

I visited a particular pub in Sutton a few years back and, asking about their resident ghost, received something of a 'frosty' reception......

A little puzzled and crestfallen, I excused myself and made to leave, but the landlady called me back and apologised: "I'm sorry," she said, "but we had a ghosthunter in here a couple of months back who wanted to use the place for a DVD he was making......" He'd apparently created a bit of fuss at the site - moving things around and so on - and eventually left the premises with a promise of a free copy of the DVD (to the landlady) when it came out......

As you can guess - the DVD never appeared..... And I'll bet you could guess who the 'ghosthunter' was too!!!???

Re. the Cock Inn - we have the same sort of thing happening in Himley / Gornal with the Crooked House pub..... a very popular site these days with investigative groups. My cousin was barmaid there for some years during the 70's and she never mentioned anything about ghosts. Of course, nowadays, it's regarded as the Black Country version of the Amityville Horror house!!!

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

Me cynical NEVER!!! lol

I've been to the Crooked House, beer's watered down, wasn't impressed lol There is a black country ghost hunt society do you know it? is it part of your ghost club thing, just remembered now, i'll go look it up,they do Ghost nights and stuff at the Pack Horse Wythall but it's expensive of course lol so maybe nothing to do with you after all

 

[Nicholas]

I've been to the Crooked House, beer's watered down, wasn't impressed lol

There is a black country ghost hunt society do you know it?

Watered beer and naff ghosts....... certainly not worth bothering with then!! Actually, the beer side of things wouldn't concern me, as I don't drink. (Unless there is a nice bottle of port on the go.... then I'll make an exception!!) I always joke that the only time you'll find me in a pub is if the place is haunted.........!

Having slated the Crooked House, I have to admit that we had a bit of a 'hairy moment' when we investigated there. If I can quote from our report:

"Approximately 1.20 am: Dean and Nick were situated in the Front Entrance Hall of the building. Nick – standing in front of the closed Right Bar Room door - was scrutinising some literature posted up on the (internal) window directly opposite the front door. Dean was standing just in front of the closed door to the Left Bar Room, facing towards Nick. While both were quietly talking, the door to the Left Bar Room was heard to suddenly ‘vibrate’ for a fraction of a second. The noise concerned was quite loud and was akin to the effect produced by someone having ‘kicked’ the bottom of the door reasonably hard. The room concerned was instantly checked, but there was no one present. (Deans video camera was situated inside the room however and would have recorded the sound).

Upon being opened, the door concerned is manually swung into the area of the Entrance Hall. Because of the structural distortion of the property in this particular area, the physical weight of the door serves to reinforce it’s ‘closed’ status. When closed, the door sits firmly and comfortably in it’s jamb and experimentation revealed that it did not ‘vibrate’ if manually manipulated from the Entrance Hall area. Under such circumstances, it would appear that the door would most probably have to be moved from the Left Bar Room in order to cause any vibration, etc.

Unless some form of ‘vacuum’ style effect exists inside the property – air currently moving the Bar Door when another door within the property is opened / closed – nothing blatantly obvious could be found to account for this experience.

Interestingly, the rest of the group – situated next door, in the Right Bar Room – heard nothing at all during this incident".

With regards to the Black Country Ghost Hunt Society question - there are some 35 or so groups in the general area now, a number of them coming from the Black Country area......... Unfortunately, a number do charge for investigations, etc.

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[claire-brum71]

Well we tried it for a change, my Partner grew up around there, i don't really drink myself but was told i had to sample 'real ale' i wasn't impressed lol

It is a very strange place indeed, i believe it's caused due to subsidence and it looks like the bar goes down but if you put a penny on it it rolls up .... I don't know much about it's history or how long it's been there or heard any ghost stories about it

 

[lindev]

when my grandson was 3 years old he started nursery school, on his 3 rd day there he decided he had had enough he wanted to come home so he stood by the school gate wondering which way home was, he said nanny i was coming home and this old man said no boy you go back into school mommy will be here soon go back in now, and the old man watched him go back into school, on the night we went to my moms and my grandson saw a photo on the wall of my dad, he shouted mommy thats the man, my dad died before he was born,he still says remember granddad made me go back into school,

 

[Nicholas]

Re. the Crooked House - it's a nice place, but getting a little 'trendy' with regards to it's alleged ghostlore.

Lindev - It's very comforting to think that past generations are still there, watching over people and ready to help out when need be......

Regards,

Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com

 

[mariew]

Lindev I think what Clair said is true, children of that age do pick up on things more than adults, and I am sure my grandson saw my mom after she passed away.

 

[Astonian]

Im The Ghost Of Aunty Mabel And That Pound Note Stays On The Table
These Was Things Kids Would Say In The Fortys And Fiftys Kids
Believed In Ghost Because There Parents Would Talk About These Spirits And Would Listen Intensively , Then When They Become Adults They Make There Own Mind Up .
There Is A Percentace Of The Humam Race That Are Gifted With Such Gifft To
See These Things , And When A Scepic Person Does See These Figures They Do Believe But Its Only A Very Small Percentace That As This Gift There Is 95 Prcent
Of The Mediams Are False And Fraud Which Demolises The True Gifted People
Its Always The People WhomSay Its None Existance Because They Have Never Experience One ,

 

[claire-brum71]

It's mad isn't lindev... i do think they look over us still and protect us... i think they do Mariew, its like animals.. they can sense things too, i thikn as we grow older we close our minds to a lot of things, my friend has some sort of 'sense' he said to me the other week, and i had not spoken to him about it at all that my grandad was around me, even tho i couldnt feel him he was here..I am the ony one who hasn't seen or felt my Grandad in the Family so it has always upset me,so him saying that out of the blue was quite shocking. He said you don't see him because you don't need him, he know's you can sort things out and don't need him but he is here with you....... he also told me of his sister.. she was attacked when she was younger and the men who did it got off... only they didn't.. see what you think of this.. his nan before she died aways swore she would protect them... well as for the guys who attacked my mates sister one died when his car went off the road into a ditch and blew up for no explained reason, not far from thier house whilst she was walking down the lane.. and guess what the car parts blew up to 200 yards around the site and not one bit hit her, she should have died...the others died under strange circustances too.. it's wierd, but well you can't help but think can you, i can't explain that.. could you?? lol

Astonian, you're right there are a lot of fake people out there who claim to speak to the dead... i have been to two, not for myself personally but they have given me messages and all money made has gone to a church or charity, i think the true ones dont make a living off it...

 

[lindev]

hi nicholas mariew and claire, it is a good feeling because i know when i am down i know for sure my dads there with me, claire next time colin fry on at the alex try and go and see him he is brilliant. but then i am a believer, i think i am anyway, some strange things do happen and i havent got any answers so does that make me a believer, i dont know

 

[claire-brum71]

Hi lindev.. i feel the same, i know Family members past are with my Family still, like i say my mom dreams of one of us with my Grandad and she knows something has happened.... she dreamt of me and him and next day i had to call to tell her half my house was burnt in a fire, she dreamt of him fixing the car with my Step Dad, she made him take the car in next day and guess what.. the car had a fault on the axle had my Step Father driven over a pothole at speed with the car it would have definately caused a crash that could have proved fatal! I have no answers for these things, i don't know if anyone does... I've seen Colin Fry on the TV, someone i knew went to see him live and said he was useless.. so i don't know on that front, i'm keeping an open mind... I am sceptical about some so called 'mediums' my mom went to a few that were shall we say fake! However i did see a Liverpudlian one with a friend at a Church in Bromsgrove, we went out of curiosity and i dragged said Step Dad along.. what do you know she picked him out first and told him stuff only he could have known... needless to say he went white lol he was a non believer!

 

[lindev]

CLAIRE i can imagine the stepdads face mouth open eyes wide lol, i went to a medium up bearwood she picked on me straight away it was a good mate of mine who had passed, she was spot on with the info she gave to me, she even descriped the inside of my house where the tv was and the music system, strange that.

 

[claire-brum71]

Lindev, i wish i had had a camera!! 6'4 18 stone bloke reduced to jelly, it was funny lol My mom went to one twice who was excellent but she passed away, she gave all her proceeds to charity and she knew if you were a bit skint and wouldnt take payment! she refused my mom who had borrowed the fiver.. she said no, you've borrowed that i know you can't afford it, well my mom was amazed, she also told my mom the inside of her house.. my mom having OCD and veryouse proud panicked thinking oh no did i do the breakfast dishes this morning lol She told my mom a David Davis was watching over her.. my mom thought don't know this bloke, only one i know can't be passed... two years later in town she met an old neighbour from Wheeler Street who told her he'd passed!! you just can't explain it can you.. it is beyond belief really

 

[Big Gee]

Hi Nick,

The former George Mason grocery-shop in Witton Road, Aston, had the reputation of being haunted. When I was a nipper in the 1950's I remember going in with my mother; the shop was quiet, and then without warning came the unmistakeable sound of someone in very heavy boots walking over the floor above the shop. Mr Marney, the manager in those days, just shrugged and said something to the effect that 'you get used to it after you've worked here for a while'. I avoided that place like the plague thereafter...

...mind, he could have been having me on, I suppose....

Big Gee

 

[Nicholas]

The former George Mason grocery-shop in Witton Road, Aston, had the reputation of being haunted.

Now that is really weird / coincidental Big Gee, as the old George Mason shop in Bilston was said to be haunted (in the 60's, I believe) too!!! I have a news cutting about the matter somewhere!

I concur totally with Astonian: there would seem to be certain people who have a distinct knack of being able to 'experience the paranormal', but it is the likes of the sensationalist - frequently TV related - psychics which make a mockery of such matters...... Needless to say, it all boils down to money and attention seeking at the end of the day!

My own experience with a 'spiritualist medium' of a few years ago was exceptionally revealing, I must admit. I normally wouldn't have entertained the idea of such things, but this chap had been explained to me as so 'gifted', I couldn't resist a sitting.

'I've got two spirits standing behind me who are associated with you, but I cannot see them'.

Well - bl**dy turn round then!!!

'I get the feeling that you have a bad back'.......

No, I hadn't, but I do perch on the edge of my seat and crane forwards when feeling uneasy - which I was at that time. Eventually, he went from my back, to my arm, to my wrist...... and there I had to admit that I had a break from about 15 years earlier (though I never, ever have any pain from it!!??)

'My grandfather was described to me as a 'big built bloke' - like me.....'.

He was - in life - medium heigh, but a rather 'willowy' man. Certainly nothing like my dimensions whatsoever.

'He used a stick to walk'.

No - he never did, as he was fitter that me the day he died! When I pointed this out, he said: 'Oh no, that's right, it's your nan that's giving him the walking stick.....' My nan had never used a walking stick in her life and was, at that point in time, alive and well and living in Aldridge !!!!

'He spoke of my mother as if alive....'

My mother had actually died a couple of years earlier!

'I'm getting the names Bob and Dave...'

I wasn't being awkward, but I honestly don't know anyone called Bob or Dave!!

'Errrrmmmm - they're some blokes from down the pub!'

Another no-no, as I don't (socially) frequent any pubs !!!!

'I'm picking up a sense of motorbikes and a warning to be careful'

I'm sitting there in black denim jeans and coat, pony tail, facial piercings, rock related t-shirt and so on. Funnily enough, I have nothing whatsoever to do with motorbikes - ever - and, if I'm honest, I wouldn't trust myself riding a kids trike........ so no worries there!!!

As the session dragged on, he got poorer and poorer with his predictions (if that could actually be humanly possible!?!) and his parting comment almost merited him a smack in the eye:

'I'm getting a message to warn you not to receive any stolen goods.....'

I was safe from a stolen goods angle, but certainly close to being up on 'charges of assault' if I spent any more time with this liar!!!!

Visiting a Spiritualist Church in Brum a few years later, I was told that I had a 13th Century, Mexican spirit guide watching over me... The friends I had attended with apparently had their own guides too - those of a sumo wrestler and an ancient China-man......

As we were leaving the church one of the mediums thanked us for attending and said: "I'll see you again...." I couldn't help but reflect on his potential psychic powers, as, after the rot we'd been exposed to that night, he most certainly wouldn't!!!!

Regards,

Nick

 

[begenuine]

Well i have to say i was shocked to see a group on Facebook inviting people to attend a book signing by Richard Felix (Most Haunted) at the Cock Inn at Rubery... My cousin worked there for years and never had anything happen... Apparently it gets a mention in his newbook as being the most haunted Pub in Birmingham... I find that very hard to believe but i could be wrong?? Maybe someone knows something i dont lol

Oh and My dad worked at Triplex for years and he had so many experiences there, apparently they have loads of ghosts there, he's not a believer and very sceptical, but even he had to admit something was going on that he couldn't explain

I read the comments regarding the Cock Inn at Rubery with interest. I have owned and managed the pub for the last 14 months and I can confirm that unexplained activity does take place at the pub. I’m not going to say that we have things like tables and chairs flying around because we don’t; just small incidents that made me sit up and take notice.

Its rare that things happen when the pub is open because what happens is very subtle so they rarely get noticed but when everyone has gone and all is quiet then its almost as if they come out to play, some regulars have told of happenings and I cannot confirm if they are true or not.

The Cock has been standing since 1811 beginning life as a farm and quickly turned into an Inn and for hundreds of years previous to that where the cock stands was always a farm so there is lots of history and energy surrounding our site.

In fact the happenings at the pub inspired me to become a member of Kings Heath Spiritualist Church where I obtained my evidence and now sit the circle to develop my psychic ability.

I have had 2 investigation teams in the pub, one of which is psychic based and another team who are very scientific in their research. Both teams have recorded results by the end of the night. On top of that I have personally witnessed phenomena and I have my evidence! Most of my staff have been involved at investigations and even the sceptical amongst them have not been able to explain what they have seen.

With regards to Richard Felix signing his new book at my pub and the advertising of these phenomena, it has been mentioned that this is done as a money spinner... absolutely! anything to help this business survive and keep my staff employed is welcomed by me. Perhaps it’s the spirits way of helping things along!

 

[claire-brum71]

I'm not knocking you, just saying i hadn't heard mega ghost stories, and to be honest with you, as far as Richard Felix is concerned, he's probably a genuine guy, I just don't think the most haunted stuff has done him any favours with all their so called 'set ups' and thats from thier own people. We are just boucing around ideas, and i for one am certainly open to anything, but as you are probably aware there are a lot of people out there ready to make money out of vulnerable people and i just don't agree with that.