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Bomb damage in unidentified streets

I have looked in 1940 Kelly's the nearest online directory I can find and there is a John Lee at 36 Paradise Street but his premises are on the third floor and he sells wallpaper. There is also a Jn Lee at 38 Spring Hill a gramophone dealer. I checked names beginning Lee.... as well and found a J Leek house furnishers in High Street B5, a John Lees in Carrs Lane, a J Leeson auctioneers in Colmore Row but no bars.
 
Looked at Kellys for 1940. In case part of the sign might be missing (but don't think that likely) listed from the commercial section the only firms listed which might start "John Lee" :


John Lee, Gramophone dealer, 38 Spring hill

John Edward Lee, painter, 19 Hickman Road

John R.Lee, boot repairer, Union St, Smethwick

J. Leedham, wholesale grocer, 212, Grove Lane, Smethwick

John Lees & Co, warehouseman, 10 Carrs Lane,

John Lees, china dealer, 408 alum rock Road,

J.H.Leeson & Son, auctioneers & estate agents, 110 Colmore Row

If there is no part of sign missing , then this leaves three possibilities, of which spring hill seems the most likely to me, but , looking at the map c 1950, it looks like the area around 10 Carrs Lane was lost in the war (and the S could be lost). but don't seem to have pictures of Carrs lane prewar
 
I think that pic of Lees building was already here but shown from a different aspect. It was Carrs Lane/ Moor Street area from memory.
 
Thanks everyone, I think the Carrs Lane one seems the most likely and will have a look at what buildings were next door to J.Lees. I'll have a wander up and down any Old Street pics of Carrs lane if there are any ... :)
 
In the 1940 Kellys, nos 6 & 8, which would have been to the left of Lees, were Lovell & Christmas (Manchester) Ltd, provision importers
 
Having a look at some pre-war and post-war aerial images of Carrs Lane there was very considerable bomb damage on the left side looking up from Moor street and the site was cleared. It seems that the building (Jay's Store) on the corner with High Street survived but buildings below it were seriously damaged. I can also see a trolleybus coming out of Carrs Lane on its way to Albert Street and a single tram track as can be seen in Viv's image 5.
 
A 1946 aerial view of Carrs Lane, centre left in the image, showing the bomb damage on the left and a trolleybus can be seen near High Street, although this does confirm that the image 5 building was one of these.
Carrs Lane 1946.jpg
this image from 'britainfromabove'
 
With reference to the image in post#128 showing the cleared land of bomb damaged buildings in Carrs Lane.
Pic 1 here (enlarged part of Image5) shows there is a building set back and behind the building possibly on Carrs lane.
Pic1_Image_52.jpg
Arrow 1 marks a ledge on the front building
Arrow 2 marks a ledge on the set back building.
Arrow 3 marks the lower (John Lees) building.
Note a stone facing on the corner of the set back building and the spiral staircase.
A pitched roof on the left might be the Corner Pub.

Pic 2
Pic2_CarrsLane1933.jpg
Is an aerial view of the undamaged buildings as they were in 1933.
Arrow 1 marks a ledge on the front building
Arrow 2 marks a ledge on the build behind
Arrow 3 marks the lower (John Lees) building.
Note a stone facing on the corner of the set back building and a hint of the spiral staircase ... shows better on an iPad.

All speculation of course ... does anyone know what businesses were in the two large buildings?
shoothill
 
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This map is interesting reference the building (in Castle St) which appears to be behind the bomb damaged building in Pic 1 in above post. I can only find photos of very old views of Castle St.
map_c_1889_Corn_exchange_passage.JPG

The warehouse appears to have a stepped frontage which might explain Pic 1
From
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/for...snickets-of-old-brum.33053/page-8#post-348869
 
Astoness said:
ok thanks phil..yes near the gravelly hill end..number 19..2 of my rellies were killed..new houses built on the bomb site which took up 3 houses i think...

wonder where that pic of churchill was taken...looking for any clues

lyn
Click to expand...
Hi
My mother, now 91, members vividly the bomb in Minstead Road and the aftermath. She lived at no. 11. However, she does not remember the date or the names of her two neighbours. Can you help with this? Steve
 
1939 electoral roll lists...

Helen Clark at no 13
George Beechey at no 11
Rose Hannah Bishop
Thomas Bishop
James Samuel Phillips
Nellie Phillips all at no 9
 
herbert and edith harrington aged 59 and 60 died at no 19 minstead road on 30th of july 1932...herbert was my gt grandmothers son..

lyn
 
sjharbo said:
Hi
My mother, now 91, members vividly the bomb in Minstead Road and the aftermath. She lived at no. 11. However, she does not remember the date or the names of her two neighbours. Can you help with this? Steve
Click to expand...
Her name was Sheila Griffiths, sister Barbara, brother Ken. Her parents were Victor & Annie Maud.
 
Shoothill have this pic which appears to be a cul-de-sac tagged as Highcroft Avenue Alum Rock but there is no such avenue. There is Haycroft Avenue (also a cul-de-sac) and there was a heavy raid on 4th December 1940 with many high explosive bombs dropped on the district that night. Through the gap can be seen an old Victorian/Edwardian slate roof house. It looks like an unexploded bomb had gone through a roof.
Haycroftbombed.jpg

A view of Haycroft Avenue today seems to match the location but there is a problem. The house in the bomb pic is a semi-detatched but the house in today's view is the same style but is a detached house.
Haycroft.jpg

There are semi-detached houses in the nearby Mossvale Grove (cul-de-sac) which match the style but the slate roof houses remain a problem.
Mossvale.jpg
shoothill
 
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Tricky one this as the style of architecture (there is a story behind it) is quite common and not limited to Birmingham either.

On the bombed houses the left-hand pair have this slightly unusual double pair of oversailing courses on the chimneys.

Just wondering what the EP on the bombed garden wall stood for? I have seen SP – stirrup pump before .
 
It might be FP for 'Fire Point'. In those days they often rebuilt bomb-damaged houses in the same style. The screens covering the windows seem strange. Looking at the area on GE, that Victorian type house in the background does not seem to fit the locations. We probably need a 1930s map to check the house and road layouts.
 
Thanks folks :), wondering if it may help with the location, was there a map of the Fire Point etc?
 
The only way I can get the slate roof house in the view is to look towards Highfield Rd in the direction of the arrow I have marked on a 1938 map. Looking on GE at another Haycroft Ave house in line with the arrow, the house front is the same, it is semi-detatched, but the roof may have been rebuilt differently. It is behind the red car on Streetview here ... https://goo.gl/maps/LPajorvCbFM2
Map
1938Map.jpg
 
I wonder if you are looking at the wrong part of the cul de sac for your comparison. i.e. the damaged houses are at 10 to 12 on the clock and the new ones at 12 to 2 so the detached house Is actually opposite the left hand damaged one.
 
If it IS Maycroft Avenue (which, like you, I'm beginning to doubt - r.h. house now detached, problem of view through to rear, distance between otherwise identical houses....unless of course it was a total, ground-up rebuild), then the distance away of the building through the gap is a problem. I feel that the Victorian/Edwardian building would have had to be as close as Glen Park Road is/was, to the north-east. (What was the strange, long building in that road - industrial?) Or as close as those school buildings to the south-west.

Blinds/screens. Don't look internal, most of them. If they had been, then blackout screens, obviously. If external, why? Weatherproofing following windows having been blown out previously? Or some sort of more permanent black-out effort? Not a lived-in house? ARP base?

Interesting mystery. Perhaps it's a question, even pre-Facebook, of someone having a guess at location, publishing it and then it becomes FACT for ever more!!

Chris
 
I think it is the house in the view below and when it was repaired they did not follow the original style roof. In 1940 the slate roof house would be visible behind it. It looks like Shoothill made a small mistake with the avenue name putting 'Highcroft' instead of 'Haycroft' ... understandable when they have hundreds of images on their site.

Some background information.
Barra (http://barra.historynut.co.uk/) reports that James Searle of Haycroft Avenue was injured during a raid on 4th December 1940. Police records remarked 'A noticeable feature was the exceptional amount of damage caused by the blast from high explosive bombs'. The bombers probably came in from the south east intending to bomb gas works and factories in Saltley and Witton but dropped them early over residential Alum Rock.
Imagehouse.jpg
 
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The Luftwaffe bombers seemed to inflict lots of serious damage on that part of Alum Rock with houses in nearby Harts Rd and Tarry Rd destroyed by high explosives.
Harts Rd
HartsRoadbomb.jpg

Tarry Rd
TarryRoad.jpg
Slightly off topic because these bomb damage pics are identified ...:)
shoothill
 
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Still a bit worried about the narrowness of the gap between the houses with the new interpretation, OldMohawk!! The original idea (pre-extension) looks more like it in that regard.....

Chris
 
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