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Birmingham buses

I know you are talking about Crete, but remember Malta, and the old converted British trucks? I know it has changed so much these days. DSCF0598.JPG Here is a Leyland from the fifties.
 
Perusing the collections of both Wythall and Aldridge reminded me that one of the missing types, sadly, of buses once in the BCT fleet, is a representative of the the half cab, Crossley. The first post WW2 deliveries of 10 buses also with Crossley bodies, entered service in mid 1949. GOE 646 - 654 (1646 - 1654).
The last one, GOE 655 (1655) was used in gear experiments (torque converter). It was a recognisable bus due to the different and unusual sound it made.
A further order, of 260 buses, commenced delivery in 1949. These were. however, the first 'new look' BCT buses. The class, JOJ 266 - 395 (2266 - 2395) was split into two with a different adaption of the engine, there were also other differences principally mechanical.

Many of the "new look" Birmingham 'Standards' had Crossley bodies; some with Crossley engines. The last buses of this style for the BCT, in 1953/54 were Crossley bodied Daimlers. This style is well represented in preservation.
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Radiorails said:
Perusing the collections of both Wythall and Aldridge reminded me that one of the missing types, sadly, of buses once in the BCT fleet, is a representative of the the half cab, Crossley.
Many of the "new look" Birmingham 'Standards' had Crossley bodies; some with Crossley engines.
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Those later Crossleys are represented in preservation by 2489 (JOJ 489) which although not part of Wythall or Aldridge museums' collections, quite often attends events at them.2489 JOJ 489 CROSSLEY.jpg
 
The photo by Lloyd of JOJ 489 reminded me of that bus, although at the time of posting I could not remember its fleet number. Another member of this class of bus 2516 - JOJ 516, was exhibited at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show but got a far greater pubic showing when at the Festival of Britain in 1951. It was there for nearly two months: I was delighted to see it there when I went to the F of B on a day trip with school.
 
Radiorails said:
The photo by Lloyd of JOJ 489 reminded me of that bus, although at the time of posting I could not remember its fleet number. Another member of this class of bus 2516 - JOJ 516, was exhibited at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show but got a far greater pubic showing when at the Festival of Britain in 1951. It was there for nearly two months: I was delighted to see it there when I went to the F of B on a day trip with school.
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Alan
Did it not carry a plaque for a while saying it had been at the F of B?

Bob
 
The two photographs of these Birmingham buses were taken within seconds of each other in June 1987. They were in the city centre but I cannot remember exactly where. The colour photograph is the better one of the buses but the black and white one may give a better idea of the location. The registration of the number 55 bus is WDA 668T and I think the number 26 is SDA 642S. Dave.
IMG-20200513-WA0012.jpgP1000734 (3).JPG
 
I thought that Mike, but did not realise than Corporation Street was now two-way traffic. My memory of things moving east? was only trams from Martineau Street. Everything else went the other way.
 
It's been a long time since I was there and have lost my bearings a bit! Would the buses be outside of where Harry Parkes sports shop was?
 
Radiorails said:
I don't know Bob. You have caught me out. :D
Maybe Lloyd or someone else can confirm it.
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That bus was often on the 2b route and we often caught it...and YES it had a plaque in the lower saloon at the drivers end telling it was on show at Festival of Britain.........does anyone know the name of the blue colour that the City Transport buses were painted in....WMPTE was Oxford Blue...but what was BCT ???
 
mikeflan said:
That bus was often on the 2b route and we often caught it...and YES it had a plaque in the lower saloon at the drivers end telling it was on show at Festival of Britain.........does anyone know the name of the blue colour that the City Transport buses were painted in....WMPTE was Oxford Blue...but what was BCT ???
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I think it was called COBALT blue during the war years some was paint battleship grey
 
Ray Griffiths said:
I think it was called COBALT blue during the war years some was paint battleship grey
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Cheers Ray...what I've seen of Cobalt Blue is too light, I've seen so many guesses over the years of what the shade of blue it is...the most recent one was Blackberry....but who really knows ????
 
mikeflan said:
Cheers Ray...what I've seen of Cobalt Blue is too light, I've seen so many guesses over the years of what the shade of blue it is...the most recent one was Blackberry....but who really knows ????
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When you say it was too light, are you going only from black and white photos, as the earlier films were not panchromatic, and might not have reproduced lightness/darkness perfectly
 
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mikejee said:
When you say it was too light, are you going only from black and white photos, as the earlier films were not panchromatic, and might not have reproduced lightness/darkness perfectly
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The trams were 'cobalt blue' and 'pale cream' (also called 'primrose)' according to PW Lawson's 'Birmingham Corporation Tramway Rolling Stock,' 1983 and, Mayou et.al's 'Birmingham Corporation Tramways: trams and trolley buses,' 1982. From the photographs I have seen the two main colours of the bus and tram liveries look the same.

However, I don't know if the shade that was called 'cobalt blue' a century ago is what is called 'cobalt blue' today.
 
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Richard McNeill said:
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The trams were 'cobalt blue' and 'pale cream' according to PW Lawson's 'Birmingham Corporation Tramway Rolling Stock,' 1983 and, Mayou et.al's 'Birmingham Corporation Tramways: trams and trolley buses,' 1982. From the photographs I have seen the two main colours of the bus and tram liveries look the same.

However, I don't know if the shade that was called 'cobalt blue' a century ago is what is called 'cobalt blue' today.
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The two colours were cobalt and primrose, John.
 
Richard McNeill said:
[


The trams were 'cobalt blue' and 'pale cream' (also called 'primrose)' according to PW Lawson's 'Birmingham Corporation Tramway Rolling Stock,' 1983 and, Mayou et.al's 'Birmingham Corporation Tramways: trams and trolley buses,' 1982. From the photographs I have seen the two main colours of the bus and tram liveries look the same.

However, I don't know if the shade that was called 'cobalt blue' a century ago is what is called 'cobalt blue' today.
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To answer my own question from a bit of googling it is clear that today the name 'cobalt blue' is is applied to a wide range of shades of blue between being darker than sky blue but lighter than navy blue. Today colour matching is done via Pantone or similar colour matching standards, where each shade is given a number. But Pantone only came into existence in the 1960s.
 
mikejee said:
When you say it was too light, are you going only from black and white photos, as the earlier films were not panchromatic, and might not have reproduced lightness/darkness perfectly
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No Way certainly not mono photos................I was going on a manufacturers sample swatches of Cobalt Blue......but I think each manufacturer has their own ideas of what they name the colours they are making now in their range
 
sospiri said:
What's the place with the fancy stone entrance, and is it still there?

Maurice :cool:
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The place with the fancy stone facade is the old County Court and the one with the arched windows is Pitman House. both are still there. Here's a photograph looking in the other direction with the Victoria Law Courts & Central Hall in the distance - both terracotta brick masterpieces!
Corporation Street - looking towards the Law Courts from old Square - 2019.jpg
 
Irrespective of what manufacturers called the colour it would, for the size an undertaking like BCT, be to the Corporations own specification. The bus body builders used the shade specified as did the BCT with their repaints. For a definitive answer Wythall may know which manufacturer(s) supplied the paint.
The original description, I understand for the Corporation trams was blue and white. When this became cobalt and primrose I don't know. The colours were a method of distinguishing their trams from the other trams that also ran in the city until consolidation by the corporation in 1910. There were some painted red and cream?, others green and white.
 
WMPTE changed the shade of blue on the buses becaause it was a 'special' shade, latterly only made for the Corporation - and didn't have a 'BS'(British Standard) number, so different manufacturers came up with shade variations. At repaint times, sometimes buses were just given a "CV" (Clean & Varnish), andthe old oil based varnished always made the paint appear a couple of shades darker. There is a WW1 era bus body at Wythall museum where the original blue paint seemed almost black, a small area was carefully flatted down therough the varnish layers to reveal the original blue, which exactly matched the swatches we have for 'BCT blue' as used post WW2. I was horrified to hear that the only surviving complete tram, no 395 now in "Thinktank" :)mad:) has been partially repainted with blue paint supplied by the WMPTE (or its successors) and is the wrong shade.
 
Lloyd said:
WMPTE changed the shade of blue on the buses becaause it was a 'special' shade, latterly only made for the Corporation - and didn't have a 'BS'(British Standard) number, so different manufacturers came up with shade variations. At repaint times, sometimes buses were just given a "CV" (Clean & Varnish), andthe old oil based varnished always made the paint appear a couple of shades darker. There is a WW1 era bus body at Wythall museum where the original blue paint seemed almost black, a small area was carefully flatted down therough the varnish layers to reveal the original blue, which exactly matched the swatches we have for 'BCT blue' as used post WW2. I was horrified to hear that the only surviving complete tram, no 395 now in "Thinktank" :)mad:) has been partially repainted with blue paint supplied by the WMPTE (or its successors) and is the wrong shade.
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Who authorised that sacrilege on car 395? Whoever it was, in my view, should not be connected with any heritage site! That is a distortion of history, but sadly it seems not uncommon as many who are involved in similar places do not seem to have historical research at their fingertips. A great pity they did not take a look at the collection at Wythall, after all they didn't have far to go.
 
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