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Balsall Common: HOLYHULL, Warwickshire

Lois

proper brummie kid
Has anyone any ideas, please, as to where this place of HOLYHULL might be?

Smith Weston 1851 census locksmith.jpgJohn Smith, Journeyman, Unmarried, 24, Journeyman Locksmith, [where born] Warwicksh, Holyhull

Source
ancestry.com 1851 Census: Village of Portobello, Willenhall, Staffordshire HO107/2020

I have found a modern place "Holly Hill, Holly Lane, Balsall Common, Solihull, CV7". Do you think that is the best, or only, match in Warwickshire?

Which then follows (1) is there historical reference to it? (2) which would be the best parish to research birth records?

Thank you to the Birmingham History Forum; I am so grateful for everyone's contributions, enabling me to research my Grandfather's family from Australia - he called himself a "Birmingham Boy"! :angel: :angel: :angel:
 
Lois Balsall Common would not have been classed as part of Solihull in 1851; indeed it did not become part of the Metropolitan Borough of Solihull until the boundary changes of the 1970's and the formation of the 'West Midlands County' designation. Therefore I feel it would be better to Search for Hollyhull(?) Warwickshire or similarly sounding places as suggested by Terry.

 
Lois - have you managed to find him on the 1861? If so what is his place of birth on there?

Some good ideas in the posts. Thank you. 1861 Census? there is a possible locksmith in Wednesbury, but his record is
SMITH
John
Lodger
U
M
22
Locksmith
Warwickshire - Birmingham
Also, he could have been recruited in the 1850s for one of Victoria's Wars, and have been overseas in the 1861 census period, as he re-appears in 1875 to marry my GG Grandmother in Portsea Island, Hampshire as a Chelsea Pensioner.

Returning to "Holyhull":
I have tracked down a Holyhill Lane, or these:-
- St Christopher, Holly Hill Church Centre, New St, Rubery, Birmingham
- Holly Hill Methodist/Church of England Infant and Nursery School,New Street , Rubery , Rednal , Birmingham , B45 0EU. Diocese: Birmingham .
-Another 'modern' place is [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Holly Hill, Haseley Knob, Warwick CV35 7NJ[/FONT]
There is also a Holywell in Warwickshire, although that seems to be a feature, not a place like Hollyhill Lane.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I get the impression that these places between Hockley Heath & Budbrook have adopted the name 'Holly Hill' for its historical sound, the Forest of Arden having many oak and holly bushes - or am I romanticizing? Still not feeling as if I'm close! [/FONT]
:angel::angel:
 
It may be nothing but the second 'L' at the end of Hollywell is formed differently to the second 'L' at the end of Willenhall.
 
There is a record of the baptism of a John Smith in 1825 in Solihull and also a John Smith of the right age in Solihull on the 1841 census. In both cases the parents are listed as Joseph and Mary Smith. Joseph was a blacksmith and the address is given as Shirley Street. This may of course be a coincidence.

Janice
 
I noticed that Bernard and wondered if it said Holyheath - although I have no suggestions for where that may be.

There is a village called Holly Hall in Dudley but at that time it would have been under Worcestershire not Warwickshire - could possibly be a mistake by the enumerator?

Lois - I notice on the 1861 you have found he is listed as 22 when he should be about 34.
 
There is a record of the baptism of a John Smith in 1825 in Solihull and also a John Smith of the right age in Solihull on the 1841 census. In both cases the parents are listed as Joseph and Mary Smith. Joseph was a blacksmith and the address is given as Shirley Street. This may of course be a coincidence.

Janice

Oops, sorry, I should probably have mentioned that my GG (and his brother) were born with the surname WESTON, but were thrown out of the family home after the family got tired of 'paying off' families of girls! Do I have proof? Only what my Grandmother said, and that my Grandfather, recorded in Cornwall as Henry W. (Weston) SMITH in the 1901 Census, and was able to convince the Royal Navy [service since 1897] to change his record to Henry Weston alias Henry Weston SMITH when he became a Petty Officer (at which time he had to prove his existence by Birth Certificate, and the story came out). By the time of his marriage in Plymouth in 1909, he is Henry Weston for ever, with John Henry Weston (soldier) deceased on his Marriage certificate.
 
That sounds an interesting family story Lois.

So your gt. gt grandfather was born about 1827 with the name John Henry Weston and on the 1851 census he is listed as John Smith born 'Holyhull' Warwickshire and he was deceased by 1909.
Do you know what his brothers name was - and did he change to Smith too or did he stay a Weston?
Do you know their parents names? (helps when looking for christenings)
 
Now Holly hall does interest me exceedingly. The enumerators seem to be more concerned with records than accuracy of location - such as nominating the family's residence in the 1881 Census as being in Ladywood, when I am told on this forum it should be Hockley!!
My failure to find John Henry Smith nee Weston's family, despite tortuous research has often led me to look on the 'edges' of Birmingham, as it were! (I really should do a one name study on John Smith!), and that very possibility of a Worcestershire, Shropshire or Staffordshire connection. A birthdate in 1829 is a beggar of a time!

Back to the 1861 census, one of my favourite finds was his future wife and husband in District 25, St Andrew, Plymouth
George & Mary Ann SHILDON [sic SHELDON], which district includes the Plymouth Citadel, with a Soldier J. SMITH, Unmarried, born Birmingham, Warwickshire, 1829.
-------------------------------------------------
Just did a google- and a dogpile too!

Wiki Familysearch gave this advice:
Many of Staffordshire's Parish Register entries have been transcribed in full by Staffordshire [https://www.freereg.org.uk/index.shtml Freereg] and can be searched for free. To search for the Dudley records inputted by Staffordshire FreeREG - within a search select County as Staffordshire & within place select Dudley Staffs. Although most of Dudley is within Worcestershire, many of its records are for people living in the surrounding Staffordshire Parishes. The Parish itself was always completely surrounded by Staffordshire and has been incorporated with other Staffordshire Parishes for Civil Registration purposes since 1837.

I searched, and, yes, there are WESTON records in Dudley Staffs, notably - William Weston, Dudley Staffs, Baptised St Thomas 26 Mar 1815 son of Abraham Weston, [Whitesmith] & Mary. But, groan, there is also a John Smith, born 18 Jan 1829, son of Luke Smith [Auger Maker] and Rebecca, abode Cawney Hill.

Demn. I thought I was on a winner there. So, thank you, Forum Members, we can ditch that 1861 Record of JOHN SMITH Locksmith as a possibility for my Weston family. I'll return to my Soldier in the 12th Regiment in Plymouth Citadel, 1861 Census, next door to his future wife.
Oldtimers' Tip for SMITH surname hunters:
when searching, put in the mis-spelt SMTIH: there are 2,319 SMTIH names in the ancestry.com UK Census Collection (I just checked!)
:angel::angel::angel:​
 
It is indeed interesting, and I am doing it especially on behalf of my mother--but I started when she was 80 yo and she is 94 this year!

The 1851 Record has now been proven to be out of the picture, as that is a REAL John Smith! 1829 seems to be the proper birth date [see marriage below]- although that's been little help in my 1841 search in Birmingham for the family. Despairingly, I have wondered if the father died pre-1841, and the family is in the record as the mother's new married name! Therein lies madness!

His brother? no, I'm afraid our only family knowledge is that the brother 'went to Australia". You probably know that Chelsea Pensioners (enrolled) were sent to be guards on the convict ships to Australia; there could be free or assisted migration too, AND the 2nd Battalion,12th Regiment was sent to Australia and was part of the defence of the Eureka Stockade story. But, unless I can find the original family, I am scuppered on that side! Even Bastardy Records ease up in the period when my erring relatives would have been putting Birmingham girls in the family way!
Parents' names are unknown too - on the marriage certificate of 1875 in , John Smith nee John Henry Weston, aged 47, St Thomas Church, Parish of Elson, Burrow Isl, Alverstoke, Hampshire names his father as JOHN SMITH, LOCKSMITH. I say humph when I see that, as my John Smith may have been hiding his identity. AND if successive generations were named the same, a William John could be called John all his life, to differentiate from his father William John, called William!
I have researched many Brass Founders and Brass Casters in Birmingham, since a Locksmith with a Weston Surname is not to be found in Trade Directories of the period. There are some hopefuls. I havae yet to trace back to their families, such as John and Henry Weston, Brass Casters, Cheapside.
My John Smith had red hair and the family origins are from the border with Wales (family says), but jumping back a generation has not enabled meto connect- eg Joseph Weston DOB 1797 a Mortice Lock Maker from Wadham Hill, High Offlley!
I have even trawled the War Office Records at Kew in the National Archives to try to find a substantive John Smith, before he became a Chelsea Pensioner, to no avail. Increasing digitization is probably my only hope, such as the ancestry.com baptism records of my Grandfather, Henry Weston Smith & his Brother ! But it's great fun trying- obsessive and absorbing! And I am eternally grateful to Brummies for their support and interest!
 
I have maps of Solihull (including Balsall Common) dated 1831-4, 1901-2, 1921 and Present Day. The 1831 map shows Holly Hill which as Lois says is in Holly Lane (near the junction of Balsall Street). However it is not mentioned on the later maps. As spellings were not particularly accurate on the earlier censuses I can well believe that the place mentioned on the 1851 census is the same place. It is also interesting to note that Balsall Common was shown as Balsal Common in 1831!
 
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