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1892 Probate Inquiry

evacar52

master brummie
as promised carol a map showing court 16 house no 4 marked in pink...not a back to back and had a garden...and just round the corner from 79 clifford st just out of shot on the map...lozells senior school to the left is the school i attended

lyn

View attachment 142671
So interesting that is your old neighbourhood. Thanks so much for the map pointing out where the Berner St house and so interesting to learn that it was so close to Clifford St. Thanks for all your research Lyn.
Carol
 

evacar52

master brummie
and on the 1871 cenus as i am sure carol knows joseph is at 126 hospital st pawnbroker ...widowed living with children..jane..william..joseph..thomas..harriet..90 year old mother in law and a servant...seems as though joseph could turn his hand to many trades..
Yes I have all the census documents and the 1871 census makes me think that Joseph was so very kind. He is widowed and yet he has his mother-in-law live with him. According to the census documents, 1851 and 1861 he was listed as a gun maker and then in subsequent census he was a pawn broker.
 

evacar52

master brummie
Carol
1883 Kelly's directory lists Joseph's house as Finch Road but the commercial section has the following entry and I am not sure if this is your Joseph or I think he had a son called Joseph so it could be him.
View attachment 142673
a bit further down the page is - I am not sure which is your William. There is no house entry for William but if the house was rented there would not be. None of the courts are listed in the residential section.
View attachment 142674
Carol
1883 Kelly's directory lists Joseph's house as Finch Road but the commercial section has the following entry and I am not sure if this is your Joseph or I think he had a son called Joseph so it could be him.
View attachment 142673
a bit further down the page is - I am not sure which is your William. There is no house entry for William but if the house was rented there would not be. None of the courts are listed in the residential section.
View attachment 142674
Hi Janice Again so many thank you's for these entries.
Joseph was a gun finisher in the 1841 and 1851 census although in the 1881 census he is listed as a fishing bell maker with an address at Archibald St. Joseph did live at Steelhouse Lane in 1848 as his son William was born on Steelhouse Lane (Court 16, House 6). Joseph was born in Hospital Street and lived at 126 Hospital Lane in the 1861 and 1871 census but Joseph seemed to move often.
In the 1881 census William is listed as a fishing bell maker but residence is 87 Clifford St. Could the 126 Hospital St be a business place separate from his residence at 87 Clifford.
Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
Yes I have all the census documents and the 1871 census makes me think that Joseph was so very kind. He is widowed and yet he has his mother-in-law live with him. According to the census documents, 1851 and 1861 he was listed as a gun maker and then in subsequent census he was a pawn broker.
hello carol in those days where it was possible family often took in elderly relatives and orphaned children to save them going into the workhouse...an institution set up for the poor and destitute people of birmingham...young and old were placed there or forced to place themselves there if there was no other way out...not very nice places to be as the inmates as they were called lived on just enough food to survive on and had to work for it so joseph must have looked after his mother in law very well..90 is a very good age to reach in those days..here is a map marking out no 126 hospital st...i also had rellies in hospital st

lyn

hospital st map showing no 126.jpg
 
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mikejee

Super Moderator
Staff member
And in some ways the conditions were worse than prison, as mentioned in the following from the Birmingham post in 20.9.1864.

oakum picking, birm post. 20.9.1864.jpg
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
I remember talking to my father about picking oakum. He said that it was so hard to do it took the skin of the workers fingers and they still had to carry on till their quota was finished.
 

evacar52

master brummie
Hi Janice Again so many thank you's for these entries.
Joseph was a gun finisher in the 1841 and 1851 census although in the 1881 census he is listed as a fishing bell maker with an address at Archibald St. Joseph did live at Steelhouse Lane in 1848 as his son William was born on Steelhouse Lane (Court 16, House 6). Joseph was born in Hospital Street and lived at 126 Hospital Lane in the 1861 and 1871 census but Joseph seemed to move often.
In the 1881 census William is listed as a fishing bell maker but residence is 87 Clifford St. Could the 126 Hospital St be a business place separate from his residence at 87 Clifford.
Carol
PS
hello carol in those days where it was possible family often took in elderly relatives and orphaned children to save them going into the workhouse...an institution set up for the poor and destitute people of birmingham...young and old were placed there or forced to place themselves there if there was no other way out...not very nice places to be as the inmates as they were called lived on just enough food to survive on and had to work for it so joseph must have looked after his mother in law very well..90 is a very good age to reach in those days..here is a map marking out no 126 hospital st...i also had rellies in hospital st

lyn

View attachment 142732
Thanks you again for yet another map showing where Hospital Street was. I have been reading about the Poor Law Act and the subsequent workhouses. They sound frightening. Families being separated, children from parents, and married couples. Certainly not a place where anyone would want to live by choice, only by unhappy circumstances.
Carol
 

evacar52

master brummie
hello carol in those days where it was possible family often took in elderly relatives and orphaned children to save them going into the workhouse...an institution set up for the poor and destitute people of birmingham...young and old were placed there or forced to place themselves there if there was no other way out...not very nice places to be as the inmates as they were called lived on just enough food to survive on and had to work for it so joseph must have looked after his mother in law very well..90 is a very good age to reach in those days..here is a map marking out no 126 hospital st...i also had rellies in hospital st

lyn

View attachment 142732
It looks like it may have been a large house. Joseph Heath was born in this house to parents John and Elizabeth Heath in 1814 and then later lives on Hospital Street (1861 census) so perhaps the two addresses are the same. I only have the 1814 birth record saying Hospital St.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
hi carol i have been searching my old photo files collection and found this one.. the photo on the right taken in 1968 showing the reeve polishing co that was at numbers 85 and 87 clifford st ...so at some point after william had left the street 85 and 87 became 1 larger building i dont think that the photo shows all of the building but i think no 85 is just out of shot on the right but 87 was a corner property so that is showing in the photo ..sorry about the quality but as i always say its better than nothing..also attaching a map from 1950 showing that numbers 85 and 87 was an oil works...on this map you will see on the other corner with what is guildford st a pub called the alambra...not sure if you are interested in saving these old photos but as the pub was at no 77 clifford st only a few doors away from no 87 and if william liked a beer he most likely would have drank in this pub...i also have a photo of this pub so let me know if you want me to post it for you....just one other thing that convinces me that your old family photo was not taken at 87 clifford st is ...compere that with the 1968 photo i have posted which does show no 87...the chimney on your old photo is right at the end of the roof but the chimney in my 68 photo is clearly quite a way to the right of the end of the roof...chimneys did not move...its just pity someone did not write on the back of your old photo giving location and who the girl and lady wasalambra pub map guildford st and clifford st.jpg
:) DSCF1116.jpg
lynDSCF1116.jpg
 
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evacar52

master brummie
hi carol i have been searching my old photo files collection and found this one.. the photo on the right taken in 1968 showing the reeve polishing co that was at numbers 85 and 87 clifford st ...so at some point after william had left the street 85 and 87 became 1 larger building i dont think that the photo shows all of the building but i think no 85 is just out of shot on the right but 87 was a corner property so that is showing in the photo ..sorry about the quality but as i always say its better than nothing..also attaching a map from 1950 showing that numbers 85 and 87 was an oil works...on this map you will see on the other corner with what is guildford st a pub called the alambra...not sure if you are interested in saving these old photos but as the pub was at no 77 clifford st only a few doors away from no 87 and if william liked a beer he most likely would have drank in this pub...i also have a photo of this pub so let me know if you want me to post it for you....just one other thing that convinces me that your old family photo was not taken at 87 clifford st is ...compere that with the 1968 photo i have posted which does show no 87...the chimney on your old photo is right at the end of the roof but the chimney in my 68 photo is clearly quite a way to the right of the end of the roof...chimneys did not move...its just pity someone did not write on the back of your old photo giving location and who the girl and lady wasView attachment 142802
:) View attachment 142798
lynView attachment 142798
Thank you so much for these photos Lyn. I would love to look at the photo of the pub. I have a good hunch William may have often been at the pub. His cause of death on his GRO death record states he died from hepatic cirrhosis.
Carol
 

evacar52

master brummie
Thank you so much for these photos Lyn. I would love to look at the photo of the pub. I have a good hunch William may have often been at the pub. His cause of death on his GRO death record states he died from hepatic cirrhosis.
Carol
I have been comparing my old photo with the 1950 photo and yes I can see the placement of the chimney is so different. I do wish someone had written on the back too or I had asked my grandmother more about her life. Was Aston Manor considered part of Birmingham in 1890's? The Birmingham History forum and all the many responders have added so much to my understanding of where my grandmothers parents lived and how they lived. I am very greatful for this forum and all the work the various members go to help others connect with their history.
Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
hi carol
From 1869, Aston Manor was governed by Aston Manor Local Board. It became an Urban District in 1903 and was finally absorbed into Birmingham in 1911.

i think most of the members on this forum wished we had asked our family more questions when they were still alive and many of us have the same problem with old family photos we have so you are not alone..i think that when we are young we are too busy living our lives working and bringing up our children. etc....its only when we get older and maybe have a little more time on our hands that we start to show an interest in our family ancestry...may i ask where you got your photo from please? just curious

here is a nice photo of the alambra pub looking at the way the men are dressed prob taken in the 1930s or 40s but only a guess...photo taken on the guildford st side of the pub...just turn right and we are into clifford st...head a little way down guildford st and on the left was paddinton st which is where i was born in my nans little back to back house..william would have known this view very well...all gone now of course..

lyn
 

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evacar52

master brummie
hi carol
From 1869, Aston Manor was governed by Aston Manor Local Board. It became an Urban District in 1903 and was finally absorbed into Birmingham in 1911.

i think most of the members on this forum wished we had asked our family more questions when they were still alive and many of us have the same problem with old family photos we have so you are not alone..i think that when we are young we are too busy living our lives working and bringing up our children. etc....its only when we get older and maybe have a little more time on our hands that we start to show an interest in our family ancestry...may i ask where you got your photo from please? just curious

here is a nice photo of the alambra pub looking at the way the men are dressed prob taken in the 1930s or 40s but only a guess...photo taken on the guildford st side of the pub...just turn right and we are into clifford st...head a little way down guildford st and on the left was paddinton st which is where i was born in my nans little back to back house..william would have known this view very well...all gone now of course..

lyn
So fascinating looking at the posted maps and photos that this was the familiar streets of William and Frances Heath and likely my grandmother (Jane Heath) and her brothers.
The old photo came from my Auntie Elsie (my grandma's daughter). They were very close and lived beside each other in Kelowna, Canada. Now I am questioning whether I truly know if this is my grandmother. It was given to me so long ago and before the time of curiosity about my family history. Thanks to you and this wonderful forum that the vague threads of my memories and the census, Kelly directory documentation is creating a story for me about my grandmother. As far as the picture I wonder if it could be posted on the Birmingham Old Photo section with the gate inscription Hazelhurst. Perhaps Hazelhurst is significant. I was reading on the forum that some of the houses had names not numbers.
How can you tell if a family owned or rented a house? I notice in the 1901 census that the house on 87 Clifford St is empty?

Thanks again for this further visual image of Birmingham.
Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
hi carol always happy to help...i think ancestry have rates book section that may tell you if clifford st house was rented and yes please post your photo on the birmingham old photos section if you think it may help identify where it was taken...this has been a great thread to work on thanks for starting it...hope you receive the will very soon

lyn
 

evacar52

master brummie
hi carol always happy to help...i think ancestry have rates book section that may tell you if clifford st house was rented and yes please post your photo on the birmingham old photos section if you think it may help identify where it was taken...this has been a great thread to work on thanks for starting it...hope you receive the will very soon

lyn
This forum and yourself have been a tremendous help in learning more about the Heaths. Thanks you so very much for all your help. old photos, historic maps, business directory entries have added so much information. I am not sure how to post a photo as I believe you posted the other one for me. I will try to figure it out. I did post another query regarding the 1901 census I am looking forward to reading the wills of Joseph Heath and William Heath when they are ready in late March. I am indebted.
Regards, Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
as said carol always happy to help especially as you have no knowledge of birmingham...makes things difficult for you...leave posting the photo to me ..i will do it later on for you...with a bit of luck it could strike a cord with someone..have seen your new thread and we will try and help you with that

lyn
 

evacar52

master brummie
I wondered that. According to a government website about viewing old wills - if it just says probate there is unlikely to be a will. If it mentions probate and admin or has the words "and will" then you should be able to get a copy of the will.
Hi Janice
You were so correct. I heard back today regarding the will of Joseph Heath and he did not have a will. The two gentlemen named were executors and seemed to be from Birmingham, not London.
Carol
 
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