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1892 Probate Inquiry

evacar52

master brummie
My understanding of Probate is the 'granting of Probate'. The passing of responsibility [to named persons] for settling the deceased Estate and distributions in accordance with any Will or, in the absence of a Will, to those related who are entitled to benefit. It is not usual for the deceased to appoint two [or more] such persons in order that their wishes are truly met.

I, myself, have acted in such a role to a close relative. It can actually be quite easy. Speaking current day, there is an online HMRC declaration to be made. Then an appointment made to be 'sworn' as an Executor. Mine was in the old Lewis's building. Very relaxed.

Then, some weeks later, a document arrives, the 'Granting of Probate'. Then, together with the original Will, off one toddles to a Bank. Which one is unimportant. Banks, generally, have a requirement to assist inadministering Probate. I chose my local Branch of the Bank where the deceased's funds were held.

Then there was the Land Registry. They couldn't have been more helpful. Send off the necessary documents and the Title to the property was changed.

As far as I am concerned, appointing a Solicitor to act as an Executor is [for them] is a Licence to 'print money' with their exhorbitant charges for what are essentially, just 'administrative' functions.

I once saw an advert for the sale of a Solicitor's practice and, one of the key selling points was the 'number of Wills held'!

I'm digressing here but some years ago, when I wanted to 'clear' my Mortgage, I asked a settlement figure, which was given, plus a £75 Legal Dept fee to remove their 'charge' on the property. I think it was with the Halifax.

One day, passing the offices of a Solicitor, I walked in and asked what they would charge [for the same service]. £35 - but then added that I could do it myself with a form from the Land Registry. I then spoke to the Land Registry. Again, very helpful. Downloaded and completed their Form.

Covering letter, cheque, and Land Registry form, stapled together, were then sent off to the Halifax. They cashed the cheque but then denied that they had received the Land Registry form. Robdogs!

I persisted and eventually, a second Land Registry form was returned endorsed accordingly.

£75 saved.:)
Hi Ken

Enjoyed your report on probate of English wills. Here in Canada lawyers are often involved as appointed executors and of course they charge fees for their expertise. fees. If you appoint a relative or trusted colleague, they can also charge 5 percent of the inheritance amount. Will settlement, even simple ones, takes forever with all the red tape and the ultimate wills tax which goes to the government.
Carol
 

evacar52

master brummie
always happy to help carol...with regards to the probate

Probate London 1 February to George Atkins manufacturer and John Davis gentleman

its only a guess but maybe george atkins and john davis could have been close friends of josephs who he relied upon to carry out the terms of his will...also possible the were in the same trade as joseph i am also wondering if we can track down george atkins and john davis on the 1891 census to see if they maybe lived close to joseph or were in a similar trade...i am happy to have a look for you later on today...something may turn up...just as an aside i know burbury st very well as i grew up just a couple of streets away

also the house where joseph died at 169 burbury st is still there...its the house with the white door...click on street view below ....lyn

I tried doing a google map search for 87 Clifford St (the house where William and Frances Heath and family lived prior to 169 Burbury) but it appeared that this house no longer exists. I am not very skilled at using google maps. I have only one picture of my grandmother as a little girl sitting outside her house with what I presume is my great grandmother. Is their a way to attach pictures to this forum in the chance that someone might add some insight into the location.?

Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
hi carol so both joseph heath and son william both died in 1893?

yes all of the old clifford st demolished during the 1960s to be replaced by new houses...

with regard to the heath and co bycycle fittings...kellys directory does say it was at 169 burbury st so more than likely as many did in those days they erected a small workshop at the back of the house and worked from there..

lyn
 
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evacar52

master brummie
hi carol so both joseph heath and son william both died in 1893?

yes all of the old clifford st demolished during the 1960s to be replaced by new houses...

lyn
Hi Lyn

Thanks for the confirmation that Clifford St buildings are gone. I have compared the picture I have to 169 Burbury St and I think the photo of my grandma with her mother must have been at Clifford St.. The sign on the gate in front of the brick house says Hazelhurst.

I have the death certificates for Joseph Heath and William Heath from the GRO. Joseph Heath died December 31, 1892, although the probate date lists 1893 for the probate. William Heath, his son died Feburary 27, 1893 at the age of 45. The witness to his death was M A Phillips whose address was 74 Clifford St so he must have been a previous neighbour.

Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
thats great carol the wills should make interesting reading as well...

lyn
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
carol if i send you my email address via our private message system could you email me the photo you have and i will post it on here for you

lyn
 

pjmburns

master brummie
1889 map - so based on survey earlier. The red marker is where 87 Clifford Street was. I think it would have been the house on the left.
1583502673824.png
 

pjmburns

master brummie
Directory entry for 87 Clifford Street in 1892 - already cycle works.
1583502912910.png
Two years earlier the entry read
1583503012179.png
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
I'm still pondering on why a Birmingham man would have probate in London? I seem to remember that if the deceased had property in more than one county something different happened and it couldn't be registered in Birmingham. My only other thought was that the companies he owned may have been registered with Companies House in which case this could account for it.

About your query about women running businesses - My 3 x great grandmother ran a business in 1856 after her husband died (dyers in Gosta Green) and her daughter had her own shop in the late 1800's (second hand clothes - Summer Lane) after her husband died.
 

evacar52

master brummie
Directory entry for 87 Clifford Street in 1892 - already cycle works.
View attachment 142639
Two years earlier the entry read
View attachment 142640
Again these are fascinating entries and William Heath as a pawn broker and maunufacturer of bicycles also new knowledge. In the census forms he identifies his occupation as brass founder in 1871, 1881 and in 1891 as a fishing bell maker. His oldest son is also William and no occupation or scholar is noted for him in the 1891 census when William Jr would have been 16. Perhaps William & Co refers to his son. The other two brothers are scholars at this point. So do I take from this that occupations on census documents are not always accurate?

Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
here is carols family photo which she thinks could be taken at no 87 clifford st...carol i have my doubts about the location..looking at pics of clifford st that we have on the forum they were not as grand as the one in your photo which even has its own name on the gate.. as you can see from janices map most of the houses lead straight onto the street...a few did have a small front garden but as said at the moment i am not entirely convinced that this is taken in clifford st also looking at the photo there appears to be no buildings behind the house yet the map does show some also the house is far too large to be no 87 as indicated on the map...just noted buildings at the back of no 87 could be the workshops of the cycle fork manufactory which looking at the map could have been accessed from round the corner in lennox st...note the entrance in lennox st..this is all purely guess work on my partheath home.jpg...think a bit more research is needed

lyn
 
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pjmburns

master brummie
I agree Lyn. Although I don't know the area the photo does not seem to tie with the map. Can we get a rough date for the photo? I can't work out exactly who is in the photo.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
morning jan her is the message i received from carol...i wonder if the 2 buildings on your red dot on the map are both no 87 the larger building to the left of the dot seems to indicate a garden path as shown in carols photo...just thinking out loud here

Here is the picture I mentioned that I believe is my grandmother (Jane Heath) who was born on May 3, 1887 at 87 Clifford St., Aston Manor to William and Frances Martha Heath.. I believe the other woman to be her mother, Frances Martha Heath. I presumed this picture was taken at their Clifford St address as they lived there in the 1891 census and I presumed longer. I know now from the death record of Joseph Heath that he died at his son William's home on December 1892 and the address was 169 Burbury St. Thus they only lived at the Clifford St address until 1892 but had moved to 169 Burbury St at least by December 1892.

I have compared the picture to the current Burbury St picture on the Birmingham forum but I do not think they look like the same residences. In 1892 my grandmother would have been 5 1/2 years at most and I am not sure if the little girl in the picture is that young.

Any ideas you have are most welcome. If you look closely at the fence it says Hazelhurst so don't know if that is a clue. The resolution of the original photo is very poor as it is so old.

Thanks so much for posting the picture
 
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pjmburns

master brummie
Just fished out my 1913 paper map and looked with magnifying glass. Does look as if the 2 properties may have a space in front. Will check later on a later map with numbers.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
jan even on your map post 28 you can clearly see that the 2 properties on your red dot have got more front garden space than the rest of the houses

lyn
 

sospiri

Ex-pat Brummie
Frilly net drapes and venetian blinds, and whilst it is difficulty to gauge the age of the adult, both she and the child have similar shaped noses and I believe that could quite easily be her mother.

Maurice :cool:
 

pjmburns

master brummie
If the daughter Jane was born in 1887 and they moved to Burbury Street after 1891 census and by 1892 then Jane can only be 4 or 5 - how old do we think the girl in the photo was?
 
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