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1892 Probate Inquiry

evacar52

master brummie
The Probate Calender of Joseph Heath, 1893 reads: HEATH, Joseph of Finch Rd., Handworth, Staffordshire, gentleman died 31 December, 1893 at Burbury St Aston, Warwickshire. Probate London 1 February to George Atkins manufacturer and John Davis gentleman Effects 3906 pounds. My question is, does this mean he left his effects to to George Atkins and John Davis or were they involved in the probate proceedings. Joseph Heath had been a gun manufacturer (1841-1851) and a pawn broker (1861-1871). Was the size of his estate considered modest in 1893.
Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
hi evacar well i can tell you that the inflation calendar in todays money puts £3906 worth a whopping
£499,548.15 in 2020
UK Inflation Calculator

nearly half a million pounds :rolleyes: .so joseph certainly did well in life..do you know if he married at the time of his death or had living children?

must admit i am not sure if names on probate means he left his money to those 2 people or if they were just involved in the probate ..will try and find out unless our member know for sure..

update

i have just looked at joseph on the 1891 census as no doubt you have done and he is living at 62 finch road and is widowed aged 76 brass founder...he has a son also a brass founder and daughter in law and grandchild living with him so he would have had family to leave his money to

lyn
 
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Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
thanks jan that is what i thought but was not sure...just as an aside his house at no 62 finch road is very much still there...its the one with the porch and the entry to the right of the house...street view below



lyn
 
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evacar52

master brummie
hi evacar well i can tell you that the inflation calendar in todays money puts £3906 worth a whopping
£499,548.15 in 2020
UK Inflation Calculator

nearly half a million pounds :rolleyes: .so joseph certainly did well in life..do you know if he married at the time of his death or had living children?

must admit i am not sure if names on probate means he left his money to those 2 people or if they were just involved in the probate ..will try and find out unless our member know for sure..

update

i have just looked at joseph on the 1891 census as no doubt you have done and he is living at 62 finch road and is widowed aged 76 brass founder...he has a son also a brass founder and daughter in law and grandchild living with him so he would have had family to leave his money to

lyn
Thanks for the 2020 conversion. Yes in the 1891 census he is living with his son Thomas on Finch Rd although his death certificate has him at 169 Burbury St. at the time of his death which is the home of another son, William (my great grandfather). The gentlemen mentioned in the probate do not seem to be lawyers so curious who they are and if they are executors of the estate.
 

evacar52

master brummie
thanks jan that is what i thought but was not sure...just as an aside his house at no 62 finch road is very much still there...its the one with the porch and the entry to the right of the house...street view below



lyn
Thank you so much lyn for the look at an ancestors home. I marvel that I can be living in Vancouver area Canada and see on my computer this home. A fascinating look. Thank you.

Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
always happy to help carol...with regards to the probate

Probate London 1 February to George Atkins manufacturer and John Davis gentleman

its only a guess but maybe george atkins and john davis could have been close friends of josephs who he relied upon to carry out the terms of his will...also possible the were in the same trade as joseph i am also wondering if we can track down george atkins and john davis on the 1891 census to see if they maybe lived close to joseph or were in a similar trade...i am happy to have a look for you later on today...something may turn up...just as an aside i know burbury st very well as i grew up just a couple of streets away

also the house where joseph died at 169 burbury st is still there...its the house with the white door...click on street view below ....lyn

 
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pjmburns

master brummie
I wondered that. According to a government website about viewing old wills - if it just says probate there is unlikely to be a will. If it mentions probate and admin or has the words "and will" then you should be able to get a copy of the will.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
I wondered that. According to a government website about viewing old wills - if it just says probate there is unlikely to be a will. If it mentions probate and admin or has the words "and will" then you should be able to get a copy of the will.
yes i agree jan...it does seem odd that considering joseph had at least 2 sons there does not seem to be a will made out in their favour...also probate was in london not birmingham so i am just trying to work out that if carol wants to continue with this what would be her next step...bit confused with this one :rolleyes: i would imagine that josephs death could have been reported in the newspapers so if any of our members has access to the online newspaper archives maybe they could do a search for his death

lyn
 
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Lady Penelope

master brummie
I've been using the government website https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk with much success. It takes a while for the will to come through but as it only costs £1.50 I can put up with this. I've looked at Joseph Heath and cannot think that he hadn't got a will as it says 'probate granted' etc. As Janice says, this means that those named can carry out his wishes. Maybe the two gentlemen mentioned were resident in London and he knew them via his work.
Do have a look evacar52 and I'm sure you'll find his will. If you have any trouble let me know and I'll apply for it for you.
 

evacar52

master brummie
I've been using the government website https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk with much success. It takes a while for the will to come through but as it only costs £1.50 I can put up with this. I've looked at Joseph Heath and cannot think that he hadn't got a will as it says 'probate granted' etc. As Janice says, this means that those named can carry out his wishes. Maybe the two gentlemen mentioned were resident in London and he knew them via his work.
Do have a look evacar52 and I'm sure you'll find his will. If you have any trouble let me know and I'll apply for it for you.
Thanks so ,much for the link. I will have a look. So appreciate everyone's efforts to solve this mystery.

Carol
 

evacar52

master brummie
always happy to help carol...with regards to the probate

Probate London 1 February to George Atkins manufacturer and John Davis gentleman

its only a guess but maybe george atkins and john davis could have been close friends of josephs who he relied upon to carry out the terms of his will...also possible the were in the same trade as joseph i am also wondering if we can track down george atkins and john davis on the 1891 census to see if they maybe lived close to joseph or were in a similar trade...i am happy to have a look for you later on today...something may turn up...just as an aside i know burbury st very well as i grew up just a couple of streets away

also the house where joseph died at 169 burbury st is still there...its the house with the white door...click on street view below ....lyn

I have just had a look at the census documents and in the 1891 census, Joseph was living with his son Thomas on Finch Rd. I also checked the 1891 census for his son William Heath and he resided at 87 Clifford Street. So while I have the death certificate for Joseph Heath which has his death at 169 Burbury St (witnessed by Sarah Wilding who marks her name with an X so presuming she may be a servant) I am curious who lived at 169 Burbury St. in 1892 when Joseph died. Another mystery.

So interesting that you grew up near Burbury Street. Does it look drastically different from when you grew up there?
Carol
 

evacar52

master brummie
I've been using the government website https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk with much success. It takes a while for the will to come through but as it only costs £1.50 I can put up with this. I've looked at Joseph Heath and cannot think that he hadn't got a will as it says 'probate granted' etc. As Janice says, this means that those named can carry out his wishes. Maybe the two gentlemen mentioned were resident in London and he knew them via his work.
Do have a look evacar52 and I'm sure you'll find his will. If you have any trouble let me know and I'll apply for it for you.
I have just had a look and it appears that I can order the will of Joseph Heath so will do so. Thanks so much.

Carol
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
I have just had a look at the census documents and in the 1891 census, Joseph was living with his son Thomas on Finch Rd. I also checked the 1891 census for his son William Heath and he resided at 87 Clifford Street. So while I have the death certificate for Joseph Heath which has his death at 169 Burbury St (witnessed by Sarah Wilding who marks her name with an X so presuming she may be a servant) I am curious who lived at 169 Burbury St. in 1892 when Joseph died. Another mystery.

So interesting that you grew up near Burbury Street. Does it look drastically different from when you grew up there?
Carol
hi carol below is your post 5 which says that joseph died at the home of son william at 169 burbury st...although as you say william was in clifford st on the 1891 census maybe he moved to burbury st just before josephs death...the houses have not really change over the years but they have been modernised...ie indoor toilets and bathrooms new windows and doors...things like that

Thanks for the 2020 conversion. Yes in the 1891 census he is living with his son Thomas on Finch Rd although his death certificate has him at 169 Burbury St. at the time of his death which is the home of another son, William (my great grandfather). The gentlemen mentioned in the probate do not seem to be lawyers so curious who they are and if they are executors of the estate.


lyn
 
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Ken_R

master brummie
My understanding of Probate is the 'granting of Probate'. The passing of responsibility [to named persons] for settling the deceased Estate and distributions in accordance with any Will or, in the absence of a Will, to those related who are entitled to benefit. It is not usual for the deceased to appoint two [or more] such persons in order that their wishes are truly met.

I, myself, have acted in such a role to a close relative. It can actually be quite easy. Speaking current day, there is an online HMRC declaration to be made. Then an appointment made to be 'sworn' as an Executor. Mine was in the old Lewis's building. Very relaxed.

Then, some weeks later, a document arrives, the 'Granting of Probate'. Then, together with the original Will, off one toddles to a Bank. Which one is unimportant. Banks, generally, have a requirement to assist inadministering Probate. I chose my local Branch of the Bank where the deceased's funds were held.

Then there was the Land Registry. They couldn't have been more helpful. Send off the necessary documents and the Title to the property was changed.

As far as I am concerned, appointing a Solicitor to act as an Executor is [for them] is a Licence to 'print money' with their exhorbitant charges for what are essentially, just 'administrative' functions.

I once saw an advert for the sale of a Solicitor's practice and, one of the key selling points was the 'number of Wills held'!

I'm digressing here but some years ago, when I wanted to 'clear' my Mortgage, I asked a settlement figure, which was given, plus a £75 Legal Dept fee to remove their 'charge' on the property. I think it was with the Halifax.

One day, passing the offices of a Solicitor, I walked in and asked what they would charge [for the same service]. £35 - but then added that I could do it myself with a form from the Land Registry. I then spoke to the Land Registry. Again, very helpful. Downloaded and completed their Form.

Covering letter, cheque, and Land Registry form, stapled together, were then sent off to the Halifax. They cashed the cheque but then denied that they had received the Land Registry form. Robdogs!

I persisted and eventually, a second Land Registry form was returned endorsed accordingly.

£75 saved.:)
 

evacar52

master brummie
hi carol below is your post 5 which says that joseph died at the home of son william at 169 burbury st...although as you say william was in clifford st on the 1891 census maybe he moved to burbury st just before josephs death...the houses have not really change over the years but they have been modernised...ie indoor toilets and bathrooms new windows and doors...things like that

Thanks for the 2020 conversion. Yes in the 1891 census he is living with his son Thomas on Finch Rd although his death certificate has him at 169 Burbury St. at the time of his death which is the home of another son, William (my great grandfather). The gentlemen mentioned in the probate do not seem to be lawyers so curious who they are and if they are executors of the estate.


lyn
A little senior moment on my part. I checked the death certificate for William Heath which I ordered from GRO and he died at 169 Burbury Street so yes that was the residence of William Heath I presume. In the 1901 census the house is indicated as empty on the census form.
Again so fascinating to have this 2020 look at where my ancestors lived.

Carol
 

evacar52

master brummie
I am not sure this helps but: these are the two year availabe on Ancestry
1892 Kelly's
View attachment 142627

1895
View attachment 142628
William Heath died in 1893 and his widow was Frances Martha Heath. William Heath was a brass founder in the census records although his death certificate has his occupation as fishing reel maker. His father Joseph was a pawnbroker so perhaps Frances Martha assumes this business. Would 169 Burbury be both their living residence and business address? So interesting about the Heath and Co bicycle fittings manufacturers at this same address..

If John Samuel Fenton lived at 169 Burbury Streetin 1892 then then William and Frances Martha Heath must have moved from their 87 Clifford Street residence in late 1892 or early 1893 as William dies at 169 Burbury St in February 1893.

Was it unusual for a woman to be working in 1895? Was the job of pawn broker reputable? There is a perception in 2020 in the Vancouver area that some pawn brokers accept stolen goods.
Thanks again for this information again adding fascinating information about my great grandmother, whom I never knew.
Carol
 
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