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11 Plus Exams

farmerdave said:
Perhaps you were judged to be very bright and took the 11+ a year early.
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Hardly. It was just the system in 1951. I think maybe I passed "11+" because I was an only child for seven years and I liked to read, and also played cribbage and other card games with my grand dad and so was familiar with numbers. I was always useless at languages and found learning things like poetry very difficult. I ran out of steam by my teens perhaps because I had been rendered unconscious from heading cricket balls or having had head x-rays, whatever, learning which had always been easy became difficult. Early onset dementia?
 
I think the King Edward exam must have changed. No music questions in 1986 or 1989 when my two children passed.

What a can of worms mention of the 11+ opens! I was born in a rough, poverty struck part of Liverpool: Toxteth. I passed the 11+ and frankly going to the best grammar school in Liverpool changed my life in the long term for the better.

Often feel at a disadvantage on the Forum as my early memories are not of Brum.
 
Being me, I took the thing a year early, and being born in late May wound up at the grammar school at the ripe old age of ten years and three months.

Nothing much happened after that.....
 
superdad3 said:
I think the King Edward exam must have changed. No music questions in 1986 or 1989 when my two children passed.

What a can of worms mention of the 11+ opens! I was born in a rough, poverty struck part of Liverpool: Toxteth. I passed the 11+ and frankly going to the best grammar school in Liverpool changed my life in the long term for the better.

Often feel at a disadvantage on the Forum as my early memories are not of Brum.
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Don't worry. Other than going through by train my first memories of it were when I was 24
 
Lady Penelope said:
Morning Lyn, I always felt that the 11 plus was not a good idea. I passed without any problem, not because I was any more intelligent than anyone who didn't pass, they just asked me the right questions and wasn't worried or nervous. My brother didn't pass and yet he was far more clever and hard working than I ever was. Everyone else in our gang passed and it had a profound effect on him from then onward. I think this was proved by the fact that I got two 'O' levels - Art and English Literature and he got 'A' levels in Physics, Chemistry and Maths. He got a place at university but Dad was very ill (although we didn't know at the time) and wouldn't let him go.
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One of the things that a lot of people either didn't know of have forgotten about the 11+ is that it was not based purely on the tests.it was dependant upon the number of grammar and technical places available in your area. It also depends on the number of places for girls, there were fewer, so this affected their pass rates. I say pass rates, but there was not meant to be pass or fail, you were sent to the most appropriate school depending on the tests and your school's recommendation! This affected many able children from disadvantaged backgrounds.
I was Catholic in Sutton Coldfield and was placed at Cardinal Wiseman in New Oscott. I came top in all subject areas there and because the school was over the border in Birmingham, I was entered for 13+ and ended up at John Willmott GS in Sutton. Not a success for me as I was then put down a year to catch up on subjects I had not studied such as Latin, french, seperate sciences. Not a positive experience either socially or academically! I left before taking exams and went to Birmingham College of Food for a couple of years. I took O levels and teaching qualifications in my early 20s and spent over 30 years as a Secondary teacher in London. My own experience taught me to value comprehensive education and to understand that a child's background should never be a barrier to achievement.
 
And I remember your parents had to list, I think, three grammar schools of their choice and you were allocated the one most appropriate for your child. Presumably that was based on your 11plus results and the school recommendation. Viv.
 
Vivienne14 said:
And I remember your parents had to list, I think, three grammar schools of their choice and you were allocated the one most appropriate for your child. Presumably that was based on your 11plus results and the school recommendation. Viv.
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That's my recollection. My parents listed K.E.G.S. Camp Hill, then Central Grammar (Where a lot of my classmates ended up) and on the advice of a family friend who passionately believed in the Comprehensive system, Sheldon Heath. Sheldon Heath would have been my preference but wasn't to be.
 
cba said:
One of the things that a lot of people either didn't know of have forgotten about the 11+ is that it was not based purely on the tests.it was dependant upon the number of grammar and technical places available in your area. It also depends on the number of places for girls, there were fewer, so this affected their pass rates. I say pass rates, but there was not meant to be pass or fail, you were sent to the most appropriate school depending on the tests and your school's recommendation! This affected many able children from disadvantaged backgrounds.
I was Catholic in Sutton Coldfield and was placed at Cardinal Wiseman in New Oscott. I came top in all subject areas there and because the school was over the border in Birmingham, I was entered for 13+ and ended up at John Willmott GS in Sutton. Not a success for me as I was then put down a year to catch up on subjects I had not studied such as Latin, french, seperate sciences. Not a positive experience either socially or academically! I left before taking exams and went to Birmingham College of Food for a couple of years. I took O levels and teaching qualifications in my early 20s and spent over 30 years as a Secondary teacher in London. My own experience taught me to value comprehensive education and to understand that a child's background should never be a barrier to achievement.
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thats very interesting cba and could explain why i did not pass but my friend an only child did.. she ended up at rosehill girls grammar...on the other hand maybe i was just not good enough at that time and she was :D

lyn
 
Interesting, because my mother and I were told to attend a meeting with College Road Headmaster William Shakespeare, and I was a bit scared of him, as nice as he was. In my five years at College Road, I can't ever remember meeting him in close circumstances before. He told us that I was a borderline case and said I would be offered a place at Moseley Grammar and it turned out that I was the youngest in the class bar one. This had later repercussions at "O" Level time because you had to be 11 years old by the September of the exam year otherwise you had to do an extra year - an absolute disaster for me. I'd dropped biology in the 2nd year and opted for Physics and Chemistry, two of my best subjects. The extra year was a hotch potch of boys across the four streams of that year.

So instead of taking Physic & Chemistry as separate subjects, we were forced to take General Science 1 and General Science 2, a third of each paper being biology, a subject I had not set eyes on since my first year. Those who had opted to do biology in their second year were similarly disadvantaged as a third of the paper was chemistry. There were a lot of aggrieved pupils and parents in that year and I couldn't wait to leave. Whoever invented that age rule should have been taken outside & shot.

Maurice :cool:
 
jmadone said:
My parents listed K.E.G.S. Camp Hill, then Central Grammar (Where a lot of my classmates ended up) and on the advice of a family friend who passionately believed in the Comprehensive system, Sheldon Heath. Sheldon Heath would have been my preference but wasn't to be.
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I was lucky and went to my (parents) first choice - Olton Convent - uniforms from "The Donne" (remember that?) and later Rackhams - I now realise probably a bit of a struggle because of the expense. (Off topic note - one blazer lasted - cuffs down to knuckles at the start and up wrists at the end - like most of the class). :D
I later "attended" my second choice school - as a teacher.
I can't recall my third choice.
 
I don’t think that principals of schooling in the 50’s or 60’s were out finest hour. The argument goes that the 11+ was not a pass or fail, but a method of placing pupils at the most appropriate school depending on the tests and your school's recommendation. Yet with the funding targeted at the grammar schools who took up a significant proportion of the education budget, it really defeats this argument. It was incredibly divisive.

It seems to have been borne out of the principals of eugenics and nothing else. We know how well that worked in WWII.

I did not pass my 11+ either, so was placed in the bottom stream of an incredibly poorly performing secondary school. My education ground to a halt, it was like stepping back in time four years.

I was thrown off the history CSE course for failing to show an interest and hand in any coursework. I left school with very little in the form of education or qualification. Fortunately, my workplace did provide a good education as an apprentice and then with further education, I was able to catch up and have a very interesting career.

There are better ways to educate people and most certainly Norway do well with their education system. Its inclusive from day one.

I have a master’s degree in Public history, so it was never really a boring subject, just the way it was taught.
 
cba said:
One of the things that a lot of people either didn't know of have forgotten about the 11+ is that it was not based purely on the tests.it was dependant upon the number of grammar and technical places available in your area. It also depends on the number of places for girls, there were fewer, so this affected their pass rates. I say pass rates, but there was not meant to be pass or fail, you were sent to the most appropriate school depending on the tests and your school's recommendation! This affected many able children from disadvantaged backgrounds.
I was Catholic in Sutton Coldfield and was placed at Cardinal Wiseman in New Oscott. I came top in all subject areas there and because the school was over the border in Birmingham, I was entered for 13+ and ended up at John Willmott GS in Sutton. Not a success for me as I was then put down a year to catch up on subjects I had not studied such as Latin, french, seperate sciences. Not a positive experience either socially or academically! I left before taking exams and went to Birmingham College of Food for a couple of years. I took O levels and teaching qualifications in my early 20s and spent over 30 years as a Secondary teacher in London. My own experience taught me to value comprehensive education and to understand that a child's background should never be a barrier to achievement.
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cba, your comments are both enlightening and refreshing! Thank you...
I have been fortunate to be married to an educator (very successful and recognized by her peers) for over 50 years who has very similar views to you as have I.

Thank you SO very much.
 
Morturn said:
I don’t think that principals of schooling in the 50’s or 60’s were out finest hour. The argument goes that the 11+ was not a pass or fail, but a method of placing pupils at the most appropriate school depending on the tests and your school's recommendation. Yet with the funding targeted at the grammar schools who took up a significant proportion of the education budget, it really defeats this argument. It was incredibly divisive.

It seems to have been borne out of the principals of eugenics and nothing else. We know how well that worked in WWII.

I did not pass my 11+ either, so was placed in the bottom stream of an incredibly poorly performing secondary school. My education ground to a halt, it was like stepping back in time four years.

I was thrown off the history CSE course for failing to show an interest and hand in any coursework. I left school with very little in the form of education or qualification. Fortunately, my workplace did provide a good education as an apprentice and then with further education, I was able to catch up and have a very interesting career.

There are better ways to educate people and most certainly Norway do well with their education system. Its inclusive from day one.

I have a master’s degree in Public history, so it was never really a boring subject, just the way it was taught.
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This is a wonderful thread for me, thank you Forum!
The comments from everyone have been so informative, particularly today from Mort and cba. When l was growing up I did not have very much guidance from my family and was unaware of all/some of this.
Thank you for shining a light.
 
My year at Camp Hill had a mixture of Catholic, Jewish, "ordinary" Christian and atheist, the headmaster was a Quaker. The small council house cul de sac that I lived in had at least six in my generation that went to grammar school or similar and I think three were from single parent families. Oh three were girls and three boys. What I am trying to say is that I didn't witness much prejudice. There was a degree of social mobility provided for the ordinary brummie kid, but it wasn't perfect by any means.
 
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I may be wrong here, but when i took 11 + in 1967 (St Wilfreds RC) I got the impression if you passed you went to a Grammar School, a fail was to a Secondary School¡¿ I failed most of my peers went to St Wilfred Martineau Tile Cross I went to Hodge Hill Comp, reason being it was 3 bus to St Wilfred Martineau 56 bus to the fox and goose then 11 to stechford for the 14, as the bus tokens were only issued for distance between house and school, house was X an School was Y they took it as the Crow fly's hence shorter then bus routes no free bus fares
 
I think it is very easy to condemn the 11+ with the benefit of hindsight and 70+ years of gradual progress. But let us not forget what it was like before the 1944 Education Act and its implementation. The act gave everyone the chance to go to grammar school or the new technical or commercial schools. It wasn't perfect by any means but was an improvement on what went before.

We owe a lot to Clement Attlee and the post WW2 government in all sort of ways. Not just in education but also for the NHS. A great man but now virtually forgotten.
 
devonjim said:
The small council house cul de sac that I lived in had at least six in my generation that went to grammar school or similar and I think three were from single parent families. Oh three were girls and three boys. What I am trying to say is that I didn't witness much prejudice. There was a degree of social mobility provided for the ordinary brummie kid, but it wasn't perfect by any means.
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That's very true Jim. I lived on a council estate and in my age group there were at least 3 or 4 who went to grammar school, about half a dozen who went to Comprehensive and a couple who went to Technical college. Those who didn't, which included a lot of my friends, went to the local secondary school in Silvermere Rd. We were all ordinary brummie kids from working class backgrounds.
 
And I remember your parents had to list, I think, three grammar schools of their choice and you were allocated the one most appropriate for your child. Presumably that was based on your 11plus results and the school recommendation. Viv.
[/QUOTE]

Viv, I remember that we had to put our three choices in order of how near they were. I desperately wanted to go to George Dixon (don't know why - probably because the girl over the road went and she always looked so smart) but it was Erdington, King Edwards, Rose Hill Road and George Dixon. Apparently (or so Mom said) if you put a school that was further away you didn't get any help with the bus fare.
 
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I passed my 11 plus and my Mom was convinced they'd got it wrong as my teacher had told her I spent all my time chatting and giggling! Thanks Mom ...!
 
If I remember correctly the 11 plus exam came in two parts. I passed the first part, but not the second.
Consequently I landed up in a secondary modern school, and retook the exam again at 12/13, and again failed. The reason according to my teacher was that my spelling, again let me down extremely badly.
I could read, and digest words, but spelling was a whole different ball game.
I was 15 in the October, and by the following January started work. The school suggested to my parents via me that I stayed at school until I was 16, that was a no no. We needed my wage input.
I have rather strong views regarding those time especially around women.
I worked in offices, and factories, in fact I believe secondary moderns at that time produced factor fodder. Also most of my friends married, and any
aspirations of anything more regarding a career would be far in the future.

My saving grace was that I became interested in following the Christian faith which I did hopefully still in depth. So I applied for Nursing school DRH. My lack of education stopped me applying for the SRN course, but I was accepted for the now defunct SEN corse. At the age of 49 I was accepted at the University of Wolverhampton for a conversion course to RGN which at the age of 50 I gained.
What about the spelling issue, well my oldest son now 50 had exactly the same problem as me. Fluent reader in fact almost a photographic memory but had no idea how to spell, but the problem was picked up at 7. It appears we both had no idea how to break down words, we picked up words almost by sight, and not phonics. After weeks of tears, and tantrums my son got it lol, but it now in the last decade I have it under control.
All I can say when I did assignments I was more than glad that I brought a computer way back in the 90’s.

When I became a RGN i was able to gain 2 promotions, and the irony was that I also taught student nurses also.

So looking back do I regret failing the 11 plus, someways yes. My world would have been expanded much wider, but would life have taken me down the same path, not so sure it would have, and nursing would never have been on my radar.
My husband always believed I could have gone much higher up in promotion if I had gained my RGN sooner, but life is never that simpl, and losing my elder parents both before I was 40, and add into life‘s mix long term fostering, perhaps failing the 11 plus lead me into different pastures of life with on reflection again no regrets.
 
Well Diane1947, thank you for that very interesting story, I am sure a few more of use can relate to your circumstances. It just shows how government idealism adversely impacted on a lot of people lives. I cannot for on moment see how the 1944 Education Act gave everyone a fair chance to attend a grammar, technical or commercial school when the system was so final and divisive and by virtue of the system of funding it was clear that a significant number of people were going to get a very poor quality of education.

It most certainly was opportunity denied, potential unfulfilled and talent unused.

By the way, have you ever been tested for Dyslexia?
 
Actually no, the strange thing is I know when a word is spelt wrong, but often I cannot visually spell it. The other problem which I don’t speak about much lol is pronouncing some words.
When I was a child carnation, and coronation for some reason I mixed up.
Even stranger is one of my grandson has Dyslexa, but did not get the help required because my son’s marriage broke up when he was a infant, and for some reason both his parents missed his problem.
However, he became a Cold Stream Guard still servings, it’s been the making of him.
 
You are certainly showing signs of dyslexia, however you would need to talk to some one who knows
 
Morturn said:
You are certainly showing signs of dyslexia, however you would need to talk to some one who knows
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So we passed the 11 plus, went to Grammar School and then came 1952 and the new GCE came in añď with it a 50% pass mark. Cest la vie
Bob
Ps sorry Mort tablet has a mind of it's own, not a reply to your post
 
Diane1947 said:
If I remember correctly the 11 plus exam came in two parts. I passed the first part, but not the second.
Consequently I landed up in a secondary modern school, and retook the exam again at 12/13, and again failed. The reason according to my teacher was that my spelling, again let me down extremely badly.
I could read, and digest words, but spelling was a whole different ball game.
I was 15 in the October, and by the following January started work. The school suggested to my parents via me that I stayed at school until I was 16, that was a no no. We needed my wage input.
I have rather strong views regarding those time especially around women.
I worked in offices, and factories, in fact I believe secondary moderns at that time produced factor fodder. Also most of my friends married, and any
aspirations of anything more regarding a career would be far in the future.

My saving grace was that I became interested in following the Christian faith which I did hopefully still in depth. So I applied for Nursing school DRH. My lack of education stopped me applying for the SRN course, but I was accepted for the now defunct SEN corse. At the age of 49 I was accepted at the University of Wolverhampton for a conversion course to RGN which at the age of 50 I gained.
What about the spelling issue, well my oldest son now 50 had exactly the same problem as me. Fluent reader in fact almost a photographic memory but had no idea how to spell, but the problem was picked up at 7. It appears we both had no idea how to break down words, we picked up words almost by sight, and not phonics. After weeks of tears, and tantrums my son got it lol, but it now in the last decade I have it under control.
All I can say when I did assignments I was more than glad that I brought a computer way back in the 90’s.

When I became a RGN i was able to gain 2 promotions, and the irony was that I also taught student nurses also.

So looking back do I regret failing the 11 plus, someways yes. My world would have been expanded much wider, but would life have taken me down the same path, not so sure it would have, and nursing would never have been on my radar.
My husband always believed I could have gone much higher up in promotion if I had gained my RGN sooner, but life is never that simpl, and losing my elder parents both before I was 40, and add into life‘s mix long term fostering, perhaps failing the 11 plus lead me into different pastures of life with on reflection again no regrets.
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Kudos to you Diane! You created a super pathway and model!
 
Same here regarding the music questions! I took and passed the 11+ for KEGS Aston in 87. I recall it being ‘verbal reasoning’ made up of maths and English, what a lovely way to spend a Saturday morning!
 
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