Villa Cross

[Vivienne14]

And if memory serves me right, the early Wellington Road ground was part of the Crown & Cushion, the pub before the 1930s C&C was built.

Just flagging up these things as they may be of general interest. Viv.

 

[Myrddin]

You may not have seen this, but might also be of interest to others. It was originally posted in the Villa Road, Handsworth thread by Richard McNeill - post #39. It refers to this Iron Room article https://theironroom.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/guest-blogger-the-original-aston-villa/

Villa Road Handsworth

thanks viv thats is very interesting..i will print that off and put it in my ever bulging folder that i have which contains 10 years of research (still ongoing) i have done on the area where i grew up.. so that snippet was dated 1832 and as richard said in post 31 the aston villa school was...

birminghamhistory.co.uk

For info re the building, I’m almost certain we came to the conclusion on another thread that the building had been significantly modified in a number of respects over time. The frontage especially changed and so might have street furniture have changed because of this. But shall have to track down the discussion to be more specific about changes and dates though.

Viv,

Yes I've been along those threads. I particularly liked the ironroom article. My quest at the moment is to determine if the first photo of Villa Cross - Fox Co's. Entire. - is the earliest. From the first time I saw it I had a hunch that it might be because it's the only one lacking a street lamp in front of the inn; and, the other three prominent street lamps look identical. I thought to myself that maybe these were the original gas lamps put up, and that when they were put up the council didn't put one in front of the inn. (The inn would have had it's own gas lights lighting up it's front, as did many shops etc). The photo was listed as c1890 and knowing the John Ogden photo, which is listed as 1894, I was, and still am hoping that the photo was taken a few years before 1890. If this turn out to be true then the photo was taken not many years after the 1874 'four founders' meeting under a gas light at Villa Cross. Then, if records exist of when street lighting was put up in this location, it may be possible to state that one of these gas lights must be AVFCs original Founders Lamp. It's a tall order, but a worthwhile one. Of course there is always the chance that research proves that none of these lamps were there in 1874. But if it proves the opposite - WOW! Any help would be greatly appreciated by all Villans who love their early history.

 

[Astoness]

Hi Mikejee. Are you certain of the dates? Another website states that it was called the Villa Cross Tavern by 1879 (https://billdargue.jimdofree.com/placenames-gazetteer-a-to-y/places-v/villa-cross/) The photo below shows it as the Villa Cross Inn. If these dates are correct then the street lamp show on the LHS mightView attachment 151570 be the original founders lamp of Aston Villa FC. If this can be proved it would be fantastically significant for Villa fans. The name Villa Cross Inn is on the sign on the LHS of the inn. The road on the left is Heathfield Road. Where the three roads cross was called Villa Cross. However, I have also been told by a historian of note that the cab stand, shown on the right of the Inn on Lozells Road was not there in 1873 but it was there in 1882. Even so it does appear as if this might be the closest photo to 1874 when the four founders decided to recommend that Aston Villa Wesleyan Chapel's cricket club played soccer not rugger. This is the only photograph I can find where there is NOT a street lamp in front of the tavern, inn, hotel. There are also no chimney pots on top of the chimney stacks of the inn. The three main street lamps are all of the same design. There is vegetation climbing the front wall. In all the other photos the chimney pots are there, there is a street lamp in front of the Inn, there are no climbers, and in some the position of the LHS lamp has been moved. This is a plea from my Villan heart. Please help to date this photograph.

just been looking at all the photos i have of this pub and i have the same one that you have posted dated 1897

lyn

 

[Myrddin]

just been looking at all the photos i have of this pub and i have the same one that you have posted dated 1897

lyn

Hi, Lyn, thanks. Is that the Fox Co's ENTIRE photo or the Holt Cos/John Ogden photo. Have you got a link to the site you got if from?
Dave

 

[Astoness]

its the entire photo but ive just found another same shot but dated 1890..i dont have a link to any site as ive been collecting photos of old birmingham for about 12 years now from various sources so ive got thousands in my files..i can post the 2 ive got if you wish

lyn

 

[RobT]

Hi Mikejee. Are you certain of the dates? Another website states that it was called the Villa Cross Tavern by 1879 (https://billdargue.jimdofree.com/placenames-gazetteer-a-to-y/places-v/villa-cross/) The photo below shows it as the Villa Cross Inn. If these dates are correct then the street lamp show on the LHS mightView attachment 151570 be the original founders lamp of Aston Villa FC. If this can be proved it would be fantastically significant for Villa fans. The name Villa Cross Inn is on the sign on the LHS of the inn. The road on the left is Heathfield Road. Where the three roads cross was called Villa Cross. However, I have also been told by a historian of note that the cab stand, shown on the right of the Inn on Lozells Road was not there in 1873 but it was there in 1882. Even so it does appear as if this might be the closest photo to 1874 when the four founders decided to recommend that Aston Villa Wesleyan Chapel's cricket club played soccer not rugger. This is the only photograph I can find where there is NOT a street lamp in front of the tavern, inn, hotel. There are also no chimney pots on top of the chimney stacks of the inn. The three main street lamps are all of the same design. There is vegetation climbing the front wall. In all the other photos the chimney pots are there, there is a street lamp in front of the Inn, there are no climbers, and in some the position of the LHS lamp has been moved. This is a plea from my Villan heart. Please help to date this photograph.

Entire Photo also appears in 'Birmingham Pubs' compiled by Keith Turner (page 87)
Says c. 1890
According to the lamp, the landlord was T.Hale.
Do we have dates when he was landlord?

This was in 1875 White Trade Directory


Also from the 1852-3 Slater's General & Classified Directory





Also from 1849 History & Directory of Birmingham

 

[Vivienne14]

There’s a T. Hale advertising as at Villa Cross on 3/2/1864 (Birmingham Daily Post) and 14/11/1866 (Birmingham Daily Gazette). Obviously much much earlier than the Birmingham Pubs caption. A very old lamp then ?

Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

Thomas Hale at the Villa Cross until at least 1871. Viv.

 

[mikejee]

Thomas Hale was at the Royal Exchange ,dale end in the 1858 directpry, which could refer to 1856 or1857. and he wen into the villa cross in January 1862

 

[mikejee]

You should ignore my comment in post 5 concerning the Lozells Inn. It would appear that there was a T. Hall landlord of this pub around that time , different from the Villa Cross, and this cause me some confusion

 

[Myrddin]

its the entire photo but ive just found another same shot but dated 1890..i dont have a link to any site as ive been collecting photos of old birmingham for about 12 years now from various sources so ive got thousands in my files..i can post the 2 ive got if you wish

lyn

Thanks Lyn. No need to post the image. 1890 again.

 

[Astoness]

ok..ive got quite a few of the pub so if i can help just let me know

lyn

 

[Myrddin]

Hi to all following this thread. Much of the searching you all have done has been confirmed by Kieron of www.midlandspubs.co.uk. He emailed me the following:

"In my humble opinion I think around 1890 is not too far off the mark. I think I can see the name of Barker, a grocer at No.231 at this time. I am not sure when Fox & Co. first operated the Villa Cross Inn - they were certainly listed in 1879. They were brewers/wine & spirits merchants. Their interest was eventually acquired by the Holt Brewery Co. which you can see on the later photograph. John Ogden was the licensee in the mid-late 1890s. By the way, Entire is a type of strong ale popular in the 19th century, though some breweries still produced a type of Entire Ale. At the time of your query the gaffer of the Villa Cross was Thomas Hale. The coffee and tea dealer William Graham was also trading on the other corner in the in late 1870s."

All the evidence supplied proves that the first photo posted is the earliest c1890. It was at a time when the Villa Cross Inn was owned by the brewers Fox Co, who were wine and spirits merchants and they were advertising an ale called 'Entire' on the front of the inn. At this time there was no street lamp in front of the Inn. In 1874 the manager was Thomas Hale. The cab stand was there by 1882 (Prof Carl Chinn). Looks like the photo could be some time between 1882-1893.

My attention now must be concentrated on the three street lamps shown at Villa Cross. IF they were there in 1874 then one of them, almost certainly the one on the left at the top of Heathfield road, IS the original Founders Lamp of Aston Villa Football Club.

It occurs to me there may be a line of investigation.

We can search for the year in which gas lamps have been erected at Villa Cross prior to 1874 ( the year of the meeting ) and up to 1894 (when the Inn was a Holt Co property ). If we find a date for the erection of the lamp post in front of the Inn it means we can limit the latest date for the photograph to that year or perhaps one year before. If lamp posts erected before 1874 were not replaced by the dating of the photograph then one of them is the original Founders lamp. (I just don't see four Methodists using the lights of an inn in preference to a street lamp).

Perhaps newspapers reported the erection of street lamps in those days. It might have been a big thing I guess.

Perhaps there are municipal archives that show the details.

If anyone has a different photo of Villa Cross during the Fox Co brewery's time, please post.

Any help very, very gratefully received.

 

[Vivienne14]

Had an initial search of newspapers. It hasn’t turned up anything that identifies specific street lamps. So far all I found is that street lighting decisions came under the Aston Local Board’s Highway Committee. On some occasions lamps were erected through private subscription - I think probably pursued by businessmen who were keen to improve lighting in a particular street where they had business interests. (An interesting aside - a Mr W Graham was a member (chairman) of the Aston Board - but don’t know if it’s the same ‘Graham’ as the tea & coffee merchant). Viv.

 

[Myrddin]

Excellent. Just searched for it. Aston Manor Local Board 1869 to 1911. Definitely the right time frame. (Yes, Mr William Graham is most likely to be the tea and coffee merchant.)

 

[www.midlandspubs.co.uk]

As you can see, Cradley had its own Aston Villa before your query

 

[Myrddin]

As you can see, Cradley had its own Aston Villa before your query

View attachment 151687

 

[Astoness]

and as i found out through years of researching the area where i grew up aston villa was an area as shown by this 1834 map...lozells lane was to become lozells road

lyn

[ATTACH

 

[Myrddin]

To Astoness

 

[Myrddin]

To Kieron (Aston Villas)

 

[Vivienne14]

Only thing I’ve found about the lamppost so far is this clipping which tells us it clearly WAS on Heathfield Road. (Source: British Newspaper Archive).Pity it doesn’t quote a source of the original info, Viv.

 

[Myrddin]

Hi Vivienne 14. Thanks for that. Yes, Heathfield Road is the accepted positioning of the lamp.

Trevor Fisher gave a talk at the central library 10 4 2012. After the crowds have gone | Trevor Fisher . He states that Jack Hughes, one of the four founders, wrote in the Sunday Mercury, 9th March 1924: “The ‘committee of inspection’- Price, Matthews, Scattergood and myself – adjourned from the Rugby match to the top of Heathfield Road and there, in the dim light of the lamp, we held a conference”.

Jack Hughes gave a talk to the Old Villans Society on Monday 4 December 1899. It was reported in the Sports Argus later that week that the four founders "met in conference under the glimmer of a lamp at Aston Cross." The reporter had made a careless mistake - it was Villa Cross.

Bernard Gallagher ( Author of the excellent blogg Updates | claret and blue | AN ASTON VILLA SCRAPBOOK ) emailed me: "As for standing under a lamp-post after watching the Handworth v Grasshoppers match, you have to imagine that this was a departure point for the four young men making their way home. Hughes didn’t live too far from there in Little Hunters Lane. As for the rest of the “committee of inspection”, the Matthews family lived in Villa Road, Price in Wheeler Street, and Scattergood in Burbury Street, Lozells."

Putting these three accounts together, I believe the four walked up Heathfield Road discussing the relative merits of rugger and soccer. They had to decide which would best suit the fifteen members of the Young Men's Bible Study Group. When they got to the top of the road at Villa Cross they still hadn't decided. Now, as Villa Cross was the place where the group would separate they stopped under the gas light there, talked some more, and eventually made the decision that continues to enrich the lives of so many.

The exciting thing is that on the Fox Cos ENTIRE photograph, c1882-1893, there is a gas lamp right at the top of Heathfield Road where it joins Villa Road. The lamp is directly opposite the place where four roads meet: Villa Cross. If that lamp was there in1874 then it must be the original AVFC's Founders' Lamp.

Thanks to your earlier post "Aston Local Board’s Highway Committee" I checked out Birmingham Library for records of the afore-mentioned committee. The library does have records of Aston Borough Council and its predecessors 1875-1912. Search Results (birmingham.gov.uk). I quote:

"Before 1869, urban growth had already led to the abolition of the position of Parish Surveyor of the Highways and the appointment by the ratepayers of a Board of Surveyors in 1865. This was followed in 1866 by the establishment of a Board of Lighting Inspectors to provide gas street lighting for the district. This body existed until 1870, when it was absorbed by the Aston Manor Local Board. "

The following records are there with open access
BCA/SA Board of Inspectors for the Lighting of Aston Manor
BCA/AD Highways Committee, superseded by the Highways and Buildings Committee and then the Public Works Committee, and its sub-committees

I am hopeful that BCA/SA will indeed cover the years 1866 -1870, and concern "providing gas street lighting for the district".
I am hopeful that BCA/AD will cover further details of gas lighting up to the date of the photograph.
But that is for post COVID happier times, and for someone with experience of researching original documents. (They are not on line) Maybe these records can help solve the question.

The Library also has a document MS3879/1/53 about the Villa Cross Inn 1879. Intriguing!

I've been surfing the BNA for free and am astounded by how many people smashed the street lighting in those days. Alas, as to gas lighting of the streets, so far, fruitless.

 

[Vivienne14]

There are some accounts of Aston Local Board meetings if you have (paid) access to the newspaper reports on BNA. I’ve read quite a few, but not yet found any more specific references to particular street lamps. But shall keep looking. Viv.

You may have seen or been aware of their content but posting them for general interest.

29/12/1931 former schoolmaster (Mr Phillips age 90) of Aston Villa Wesleyan School shared his memories of the school and football team - see extract from from a longer article in the Lancashire Evening Post below



This snippet claims 9 members of two bible classes were responsible for the team



Mr Hartshorne (first Club President) claims he ran the bible class from which the Club sprang

 

[Myrddin]

Well, would you believe it! I've never come across those articles before. The Lancashire Evening Post! It just shows that it pays to cast your net far and wide. I had been looking at only Birmingham papers for the lamps. But everything about the formation of the club intrigues me. That's good work. And thanks for being willing to keep searching about the lights. Have you tried using, Board of Inspectors for the Lighting of Aston Manor, to cover the years 1860 - 1870?

 

[Myrddin]

(Hi Vivienne. Paid my subscription.)


Birmingham & Aston Chronicle | Saturday 10 November 1888
The clip below proves that the central lamp-post at Villa Cross (in front of the inn) did not exist at the above date. The photo therefore could have been taken before 10/11/1888. It also shows that the residents around Villa Cross were petitioning the Aston Board even though at that time Villa Cross was really in Handsworth. This implies the Aston Board had put up the existing lamps seen on the photograph. Seems Villa Cross was on the boundary between Handsworth and Lozells. Will remember that the three lamp posts shown in the photo are identical which implies they were put up at the same time. Note that the proposal was agreed to. The Aston Board would put up the central lamp-post.

Prof Chinn tells us the cab stand was there by 1882. If the stand was not there before 1882 it dates the photo c1882-1888.

 

[Vivienne14]

A great find ! The formation of the club became a national interest. There are various (non-Birmingham) articles in which the Club is mentioned, I suppose because of it’s early formation, it’s connections to a church, it’s demonstration of a healthy pursuit for young men and the growing interest in football as a game. Viv.

 

[Myrddin]

A great find ! The formation of the club became a national interest. There are various (non-Birmingham) articles in which the Club is mentioned, I suppose because of it’s early formation, it’s connections to a church, it’s demonstration of a healthy pursuit for young men and the growing interest in football as a game. Viv.

All that is true but in the early years of league football (the Villa chairman kickstarted that) Villa were the most successful team of all and had the first superstar Archie Hunter. We were the World’s first super club. Even in the early 1930s when our golden era had long gone, and our captain played regularly for England he moaned that his team mates would keep asking him what’s it like to play for the Villa. Hence for a few decades it was all about the Villa. (Man U Man C and Liverpool all rolled in to one claret and blue fascination)

 

[Myrddin]

Birmingham Daily Post | Monday 24 November 1879
The cab stand was at Villa Cross by 27 10 1879. Photo could be earlier than thought?

 

[Myrddin]

Birmingham & Aston Chronicle | Saturday 06 October 1883
The above clip shows that Villa Cross was an area which, although legally belonging to Handsworth Board, often had maintenance and improvement carried out by Aston Board; such decisions being made by arrangement between the two boards.



Birmingham Daily Post | Thursday 02 December 1886
The above clip shows that the Handsworth Board referred to the need for a [central] lamp at Villa Cross in 1886.
We know from a previous clip I posted that in November 1888 the Aston Board agreed to erect the central lamp.
Therefore, with regard to the lamps at Villa Cross we cannot assume which board put up the lights. Records from both boards must be investigated. However, my money is on the Aston Board in this respect. We'll see! However, lamps erected before 1874 may have been erected by property owners, too. (See below)

"Prior to 1874, the district was governed by three authorities: the West Bromwich Union Rural Sanitary Authority dealt with sanitary issues; the Handsworth Highway Board, responsible for repairing the roads; the Lighting Inspectors for the lighting of streets under the Lighting and Watching Act of 1831."
Search Results (birmingham.gov.uk)

"In 1833 there was a legislative change which had far reaching effects on local policing. The Lighting and Watching Act of that year could be adopted locally by a certain number of property owners following a simple procedure of calling a properly constituted meeting purpose and appointing Inspectors from their number. They were then empowered to levy a rate and, among other things, to appoint policemen. This Act was adopted in a great many places, usually where the system of Parochial Constables was failing to meet the needs of the community. As the Act only provided for local inhabitants to pay for their own policing there must generally have been some problem in existence which residents were prepared to pay to solve."
The Police Gazette: Part 1 (ampltd.co.uk)

The lamps at Villa Cross, if erected before 1874 could have been erected by a Lighting Inspectors committee not necessarily under the jurisdiction of a Local Board. If so, it's possible there are no official records in existence. But Aston Board seem to be very much pro-active and have a lighting inspectors committee reporting to them. There are Lighting Inspectors records under Aston Board and its predecessors in the Library, as stated before. Hope is there.

 

[Vivienne14]

Re the third clip, suggests to me there might be mention somewhere of it in connection with the tramway works whenever they took place. Perhaps the lighting work was carried out around the same time. Viv.