Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Re: Where is This? No 180 - Posted April 9[SUP]th[/SUP] 2010 by Phil, with this mystery picture below… who expected the answer by close of play that day I would imagine….
But no such luck! …ensuing kerfuffle++…the Town Hall for sure…. the Art Gallery, Birmingham Alabama etc….and it was 61 posts later, that Tacitus from Sandwell finally got it! Well that’s it then he thought, great fun ...…but No…then it went on and on with bits and pieces of information and comments pouring in, until the last post by the inimitable Peter Walker, which was on April 22[SUP]nd[/SUP]…114 posts and some 12 pages later! Amazing.
Unfortunately, all the visual stuff, but Phil’s reposted picture, didn't survived the hacking….so I thought it useful to replay his first post and the sequelae, and invite any MORE comments, but especially try and find the pictures of the finished building…it took a lot of hard slogging and some very good research to track them down in the Library, and I just hope they’ve lived somewhere to tell the tale …?
First, here’s the Post and all the replies and text….
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=30524&highlight=Peoples+Hall
From this you will see that he finally included the text that accompanied the mystery drawing from Roy Thornton’s Book “The Lost Buildings of Birmingham”
quote: People's Hall of Science. I came across this fascinating illustration when I was looking, unsuccessfully, for a photograph of the Maternity Hospital in Loveday Street.
I had never heard of it and thought it might have been a project that was never built. However, it was, and the foundation stone of this building in Loveday Street (later Lower Loveday Street), with a frontage to Princip Street, was laid on Easter Monday 1841 and it opened in 1842, having cost £2,400 to build. Its birth had not been easy, as there had been a 'tumultuous meeting' on the proposed site on 6 August 1840, leading to virulent letters and advertisements in the Birmingham Journal with the suggestion that the trouble had been started by followers of the Chartist movement endeavouring to promote their cause, including universal suffrage.
Sadly, the building only survived for a few years fulfilling its original and admirable purpose, the suggestion for its failure being the excessive distance from the town centre. During this time it was used as a place of worship by followers of George Dawson after his secession from Graham Street until the completion of the Church of the Saviour. It does not surprise me that in discussions concerning the obtaining of designs for the building the name of Mr Hansom was mentioned. For most of its existence the building was used as a manufactory or warehouse and known as the 'People's Hall Works'.
Here are some other comments from posts culled from the generated traffic, and other sources….
People's Hall.—The foundation stone of the People's Hall, corner of Loveday and Princip Streets, was laid on Easter Monday, 1841, by General (then Colonel) Perronet Thompson. The cost of the building was £2,400, and, as its name implies, it was intended, and for a short time used, as a place for assemblies, balls, and other public purposes. Like a number of other "institutions for the people," it came to grief, and has long been nothing more than a warehouse.
Now some comments from Phil, Peter Walker and Tacitus..……..”It is indeed the Peoples Hall of Science opened in 1842 complete with baths, club, exhibition and lecture rooms and there was also a library. It didn't last long at the purpose it was built for, The reason given was "the excessive distance from the town centre"
It was used as a place of worship by followers of George Dawson until the completion of the Church of the Saviour. It then fell into use as a warehouse & manufactory and became known as The Peoples Hall Works.
This information and photo came from the very good and interesting book by Roy Thornton called The Lost Buildings of Birmingham published by History Press. It is well worth a look.
Doing a bit or research into the People's Hall I found the following on the web site 'History On Line'
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...mpid=22967#n70
"One of the first writers on adult education cited Birmingham experience to reveal the existence of a cycle of activity whereby institutions were 'auspiciously commenced' only to be 'readily abandoned when the novelty of their first proceedings had passed away'. (fn. 70) Certainly the experience of the Mechanics' Institute was not unique. Another society called the Athenaeum also failed. (fn. 71) So too did the most ambitious of the popular educational ventures in Birmingham - the People's Hall. In 1840 a group of Birmingham artisans announced that they intended to build a People's Hall of Science 'containing a library, a lecture room, school rooms, reading rooms, committee rooms, dinner and tea or refreshment rooms, and kitchen and other conveniences for the use and instruction and amusement of the people and the improvement of their understanding, morals and health and for promoting their rational enjoyments'. (fn. 72) Progress was slow, and it was not until 1846 that a modest structure was completed and opened by William Scholefield. A toast was proposed to 'the People's Hall, and may it ever be preserved to carry on its great object - the education, moral and political improvement of the people'. (fn. 73) The language was more eloquent than the organization merited. Of the two thousand shares of £1 originally issued - they could be bought in weekly instalments of as little as 6d. - 1,400 shares were never taken up. 'The entire sum raised from the donations and shares of the wealthy, was only one hundred and fifty pounds.' (fn. 74) Even when the building was opened the real difficulties were only just beginning. The Literary and Scientific Institute which was the organization controlling the use of the Hall had a clause in its constitution restricting religious and political party discussion, but a 'religious feud' broke out, which destroyed the Institute from within. In 1849 the Hall had to be sold. (fn. 75)"
These dates conflict with those given on the back of the photo. I have been trying to look up the Langford 'Modern Birmingham' footnote reference ( I have a CD) but can't find anything there. Likewise Gill's 'History of Birmingham' Vol 1. I'll carry on for a bit anyway.
Quoting further: "In 1846, the same year that the People's Hall was opened, the People's Instruction Society was also founded. For 1d. a week the Birmingham workingman was given access to a reading room (the latest version of the Birmingham news rooms which already had a long history), (fn. 76) a library, a chess room, a refreshment room, a discussion and debating society, and a weekly lecture. For an additional penny instruction was afforded in evening classes in reading, writing, arithmetic, elocution, and singing. There were 600 readers in 1846, 500 of whom were claimed to be working men. (fn. 77) This society also withered away after 1850".
Footnotes referred to:
70 Hudson, Hist. Adult Educ. 62.
71 Ibid.
72 Rules of the People's Hall Building Soc.
73 Birm. Jnl. 28 Mar. 1846.
74 Langford, Mod. Birm. i. 122.
75 Birm. Jnl. 24 Mar. 1849.
76 See A. Briggs, Press and Public in Early 19th-Cent. Birm. (Dugdale. Soc. Occasional Papers, No. 8), p. 14.
77 Hudson, Hist. Adult Educ. 65-6.
Peter
Thank you Tacitus for your latest find.
Further scraping the barrel brings out the following brief references to the People’s Hall, all taken from J A Langford: ‘Modern Birmingham and its Institutions, 1841-1871.
Report of J Pigott Smith to the Streets Commissioners, March 1843.
The erection of Barker Bridge by your Commission in conjunction with the Governors of the General Hospital and the Canal Company will add much to the public convenience, by giving so admirable a connecting link to the populous districts of St. Mary and St. George; and on the completion of the works now in progress in Princip Street, Loveday Street and Shadwell Street, the successful efforts of your Commission, in carrying out this line of communication, will be highly appreciated by the public.
‘Birmingham Journal’ 18 July, 1846
Mr Dawson’s new chapel. – On Sunday morning last, at the People’s Hall, and on the evening at the Unitarian Chapel, Newhall Hill. Mr Dawson announced to his congregation, that the turning of the first turf, on the site of the new chapel would be commenced on the Tuesday morning following, at ten o’clock. He remarked that there would be no idle ceremony gone through; and his only motive for mentioning was that that those persons whose confidence had been shaken, owing to the unavoidable delay, might have an opportunity of there and then satisfying themselves that the Committee was in earnest. Accordingly on Tuesday morning, many respectable persons of both sexes had congregated on the spot, eager to witness the commencement of an edifice that had been so long talked of. At half past ten, Mr Dawson arrived, and delivered an appropriate address, enunciating the principles which were to govern the Free Church, which would speedily assemble on that spot. He concluded with a brief but impressive prayer. Alderman Cutler turned the turf first, Mr Dawson senr, Mr R Martineau, Mr Thomas Clark, jun, following his example; and the meeting then separated. The ground chosen for the erection is situated in Edward Street, Parade. Bateman and Drury are the architects.
During the building of the new chapel, Mr Dawson preached on Sunday mornings, at the People’s Hall, Loveday Street; and in the evenings, at the Unitarian Chapel, Newhall Street.
Chartist connection
On Sunday 11 June (1848) the Chartists held an outdoor meeting at the People’s Hall, Loveday Street. The speeches were of the most violent character. The meeting adjourned until the evening; and some fears were entertained that the peace would be broken. The police were assembled at an early hour, and were kept in readiness to act a moment’s notice. The Mayor, Colonel Arbuthnot, Major Brompton and the Superintendent of Police were in attendance at the Police Station in Staniforth Street, during the time of the meeting, and kept up constant communication with the men on duty near the spot. Early in the morning, two companies of infantry arrived from Weedon, and were stationed near the railway; but their services were not required.
Fund raising for Birmingham and Midland Institute
The first of a series of meetings in connection with the artisans’ movement in support of the Birmingham and Midland Institute was held at the People’s Hall, Loveday Street, on 22 February 1854. . . . . . Later meetings were held at Mount Zion School-room on 2 March, at St John’s School-room, Deritend on 9 March, and St Martin’s School-room, Inge Street on 9 April. This seems to be the last evidence of the People's Hall still being open.
Further to my comment about the muddy connections with Chartism, I have found a good and readable explanation of current conditions and events in Birmingham on an excellent web site, URL https://historyhome.co.uk/peel/chartism/birchar.htm
A further potential source is the constitution and rules of the People's Hall, but I will have to go to my local library to access the relevant website, as it is not open to the general public. Something for next week perhaps.
Peter
The references I have for those 2 pictures are WK/B11/4048 and WK/B11/5753. They are both described as People's Hall of Science. It could be that they are just copies of the picture that started this thread but we definitely need to take a look . . . . !!
I didn't get as far as checking if they have any general views of Loveday Street or Princip Street but obviously that is a bit more of a palaver. Still something we will have to try and do before we finally put this to bed.
Rupert. Re the picture you have shown in Post 108. Strange coincidence about the number of arches but I am absolutely certain that that is a different building i.e. on the opposite corner. So technically on Loveday Street/Shadwell Street as opposed to Loveday Street/Princip Street.
The location where the People's Hall was is actually this newish red brick building that you can just see front left in your picture.
HELP!!! What pictures!!! Im going for a lie down now until something turns up…hopefully…
the Original
mike's Map showing location of People's Hall in red
But no such luck! …ensuing kerfuffle++…the Town Hall for sure…. the Art Gallery, Birmingham Alabama etc….and it was 61 posts later, that Tacitus from Sandwell finally got it! Well that’s it then he thought, great fun ...…but No…then it went on and on with bits and pieces of information and comments pouring in, until the last post by the inimitable Peter Walker, which was on April 22[SUP]nd[/SUP]…114 posts and some 12 pages later! Amazing.
Unfortunately, all the visual stuff, but Phil’s reposted picture, didn't survived the hacking….so I thought it useful to replay his first post and the sequelae, and invite any MORE comments, but especially try and find the pictures of the finished building…it took a lot of hard slogging and some very good research to track them down in the Library, and I just hope they’ve lived somewhere to tell the tale …?
First, here’s the Post and all the replies and text….
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=30524&highlight=Peoples+Hall
From this you will see that he finally included the text that accompanied the mystery drawing from Roy Thornton’s Book “The Lost Buildings of Birmingham”
quote: People's Hall of Science. I came across this fascinating illustration when I was looking, unsuccessfully, for a photograph of the Maternity Hospital in Loveday Street.
I had never heard of it and thought it might have been a project that was never built. However, it was, and the foundation stone of this building in Loveday Street (later Lower Loveday Street), with a frontage to Princip Street, was laid on Easter Monday 1841 and it opened in 1842, having cost £2,400 to build. Its birth had not been easy, as there had been a 'tumultuous meeting' on the proposed site on 6 August 1840, leading to virulent letters and advertisements in the Birmingham Journal with the suggestion that the trouble had been started by followers of the Chartist movement endeavouring to promote their cause, including universal suffrage.
Sadly, the building only survived for a few years fulfilling its original and admirable purpose, the suggestion for its failure being the excessive distance from the town centre. During this time it was used as a place of worship by followers of George Dawson after his secession from Graham Street until the completion of the Church of the Saviour. It does not surprise me that in discussions concerning the obtaining of designs for the building the name of Mr Hansom was mentioned. For most of its existence the building was used as a manufactory or warehouse and known as the 'People's Hall Works'.
Here are some other comments from posts culled from the generated traffic, and other sources….
People's Hall.—The foundation stone of the People's Hall, corner of Loveday and Princip Streets, was laid on Easter Monday, 1841, by General (then Colonel) Perronet Thompson. The cost of the building was £2,400, and, as its name implies, it was intended, and for a short time used, as a place for assemblies, balls, and other public purposes. Like a number of other "institutions for the people," it came to grief, and has long been nothing more than a warehouse.
Now some comments from Phil, Peter Walker and Tacitus..……..”It is indeed the Peoples Hall of Science opened in 1842 complete with baths, club, exhibition and lecture rooms and there was also a library. It didn't last long at the purpose it was built for, The reason given was "the excessive distance from the town centre"
It was used as a place of worship by followers of George Dawson until the completion of the Church of the Saviour. It then fell into use as a warehouse & manufactory and became known as The Peoples Hall Works.
This information and photo came from the very good and interesting book by Roy Thornton called The Lost Buildings of Birmingham published by History Press. It is well worth a look.
Doing a bit or research into the People's Hall I found the following on the web site 'History On Line'
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...mpid=22967#n70
"One of the first writers on adult education cited Birmingham experience to reveal the existence of a cycle of activity whereby institutions were 'auspiciously commenced' only to be 'readily abandoned when the novelty of their first proceedings had passed away'. (fn. 70) Certainly the experience of the Mechanics' Institute was not unique. Another society called the Athenaeum also failed. (fn. 71) So too did the most ambitious of the popular educational ventures in Birmingham - the People's Hall. In 1840 a group of Birmingham artisans announced that they intended to build a People's Hall of Science 'containing a library, a lecture room, school rooms, reading rooms, committee rooms, dinner and tea or refreshment rooms, and kitchen and other conveniences for the use and instruction and amusement of the people and the improvement of their understanding, morals and health and for promoting their rational enjoyments'. (fn. 72) Progress was slow, and it was not until 1846 that a modest structure was completed and opened by William Scholefield. A toast was proposed to 'the People's Hall, and may it ever be preserved to carry on its great object - the education, moral and political improvement of the people'. (fn. 73) The language was more eloquent than the organization merited. Of the two thousand shares of £1 originally issued - they could be bought in weekly instalments of as little as 6d. - 1,400 shares were never taken up. 'The entire sum raised from the donations and shares of the wealthy, was only one hundred and fifty pounds.' (fn. 74) Even when the building was opened the real difficulties were only just beginning. The Literary and Scientific Institute which was the organization controlling the use of the Hall had a clause in its constitution restricting religious and political party discussion, but a 'religious feud' broke out, which destroyed the Institute from within. In 1849 the Hall had to be sold. (fn. 75)"
These dates conflict with those given on the back of the photo. I have been trying to look up the Langford 'Modern Birmingham' footnote reference ( I have a CD) but can't find anything there. Likewise Gill's 'History of Birmingham' Vol 1. I'll carry on for a bit anyway.
Quoting further: "In 1846, the same year that the People's Hall was opened, the People's Instruction Society was also founded. For 1d. a week the Birmingham workingman was given access to a reading room (the latest version of the Birmingham news rooms which already had a long history), (fn. 76) a library, a chess room, a refreshment room, a discussion and debating society, and a weekly lecture. For an additional penny instruction was afforded in evening classes in reading, writing, arithmetic, elocution, and singing. There were 600 readers in 1846, 500 of whom were claimed to be working men. (fn. 77) This society also withered away after 1850".
Footnotes referred to:
70 Hudson, Hist. Adult Educ. 62.
71 Ibid.
72 Rules of the People's Hall Building Soc.
73 Birm. Jnl. 28 Mar. 1846.
74 Langford, Mod. Birm. i. 122.
75 Birm. Jnl. 24 Mar. 1849.
76 See A. Briggs, Press and Public in Early 19th-Cent. Birm. (Dugdale. Soc. Occasional Papers, No. 8), p. 14.
77 Hudson, Hist. Adult Educ. 65-6.
Peter
Thank you Tacitus for your latest find.
Further scraping the barrel brings out the following brief references to the People’s Hall, all taken from J A Langford: ‘Modern Birmingham and its Institutions, 1841-1871.
Report of J Pigott Smith to the Streets Commissioners, March 1843.
The erection of Barker Bridge by your Commission in conjunction with the Governors of the General Hospital and the Canal Company will add much to the public convenience, by giving so admirable a connecting link to the populous districts of St. Mary and St. George; and on the completion of the works now in progress in Princip Street, Loveday Street and Shadwell Street, the successful efforts of your Commission, in carrying out this line of communication, will be highly appreciated by the public.
‘Birmingham Journal’ 18 July, 1846
Mr Dawson’s new chapel. – On Sunday morning last, at the People’s Hall, and on the evening at the Unitarian Chapel, Newhall Hill. Mr Dawson announced to his congregation, that the turning of the first turf, on the site of the new chapel would be commenced on the Tuesday morning following, at ten o’clock. He remarked that there would be no idle ceremony gone through; and his only motive for mentioning was that that those persons whose confidence had been shaken, owing to the unavoidable delay, might have an opportunity of there and then satisfying themselves that the Committee was in earnest. Accordingly on Tuesday morning, many respectable persons of both sexes had congregated on the spot, eager to witness the commencement of an edifice that had been so long talked of. At half past ten, Mr Dawson arrived, and delivered an appropriate address, enunciating the principles which were to govern the Free Church, which would speedily assemble on that spot. He concluded with a brief but impressive prayer. Alderman Cutler turned the turf first, Mr Dawson senr, Mr R Martineau, Mr Thomas Clark, jun, following his example; and the meeting then separated. The ground chosen for the erection is situated in Edward Street, Parade. Bateman and Drury are the architects.
During the building of the new chapel, Mr Dawson preached on Sunday mornings, at the People’s Hall, Loveday Street; and in the evenings, at the Unitarian Chapel, Newhall Street.
Chartist connection
On Sunday 11 June (1848) the Chartists held an outdoor meeting at the People’s Hall, Loveday Street. The speeches were of the most violent character. The meeting adjourned until the evening; and some fears were entertained that the peace would be broken. The police were assembled at an early hour, and were kept in readiness to act a moment’s notice. The Mayor, Colonel Arbuthnot, Major Brompton and the Superintendent of Police were in attendance at the Police Station in Staniforth Street, during the time of the meeting, and kept up constant communication with the men on duty near the spot. Early in the morning, two companies of infantry arrived from Weedon, and were stationed near the railway; but their services were not required.
Fund raising for Birmingham and Midland Institute
The first of a series of meetings in connection with the artisans’ movement in support of the Birmingham and Midland Institute was held at the People’s Hall, Loveday Street, on 22 February 1854. . . . . . Later meetings were held at Mount Zion School-room on 2 March, at St John’s School-room, Deritend on 9 March, and St Martin’s School-room, Inge Street on 9 April. This seems to be the last evidence of the People's Hall still being open.
Further to my comment about the muddy connections with Chartism, I have found a good and readable explanation of current conditions and events in Birmingham on an excellent web site, URL https://historyhome.co.uk/peel/chartism/birchar.htm
A further potential source is the constitution and rules of the People's Hall, but I will have to go to my local library to access the relevant website, as it is not open to the general public. Something for next week perhaps.
Peter
The references I have for those 2 pictures are WK/B11/4048 and WK/B11/5753. They are both described as People's Hall of Science. It could be that they are just copies of the picture that started this thread but we definitely need to take a look . . . . !!
I didn't get as far as checking if they have any general views of Loveday Street or Princip Street but obviously that is a bit more of a palaver. Still something we will have to try and do before we finally put this to bed.
Rupert. Re the picture you have shown in Post 108. Strange coincidence about the number of arches but I am absolutely certain that that is a different building i.e. on the opposite corner. So technically on Loveday Street/Shadwell Street as opposed to Loveday Street/Princip Street.
The location where the People's Hall was is actually this newish red brick building that you can just see front left in your picture.
HELP!!! What pictures!!! Im going for a lie down now until something turns up…hopefully…
the Original
mike's Map showing location of People's Hall in red
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