• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team

Florence Manton Mystery - lived Woodman Inn & Witton Arms 1881 +

B

Burbridge

proper brummie kid
Hi, I've just joined this brilliant website; my GGGFather William Manton b 1830 (leased Woodman Inn Cregor Street 1860s / Carpenters Arms - died there in 1869) and his son - my Great Grandfather Charles Manton b 1854 was the Brewer/Licensed Victualler Manager at the Witton Arms for a good many years - was listed as such on 1901/1911 Census's. Previously he was at Woodman Inn Cregor Street. My Grandmother Charles' daughter Florence Manton b 1880 - 1945 and son Harry Manton b 1887 also lived here at the Witton Arms opposite the football ground. Florence married a barman who maybe worked in the pub for them at this time - name of Arthur Samuel Dudley b 1878 - 1915.

Florence married Arthur Samuel Dudley in 1901 and Arthur Charles Dudley was born in 1901 - 1964. The 1911 Census confirms Florence living in Cuckfield working as a House Domestic/Cook in Cuckfield Vicarage. Her son Arthur C was living with his paternal Grandmother Elizabeth Dudley at 119 Summer Lane Birmingham whilst his father Arthur S Dudley was working/living at the Roebuck Inn William Street Birmingham.

The unresolved mystery is: WHY DID FLORENCE LEAVE HER MARRIAGE AND CHILD to move to Sussex? Arthur did become a soldier in WW1 and died of his injuries in 1915. But the separation had happened way before this event and they were obviously living apart with the child residing with his grandmother. It's not unusual for a woman to leave a marriage but is somewhat unusual for a mother to leave her child behind for good. Florence married my Grandfather Edward Burbridge in 1924 and their resultant children - my Father Leonard b 1916 - 1990 and Marian b 1917 - 2000 - were unaware of Arthur C. It would seem that Florence completely left her son for good and her other children with Edward knew nothing of their half brother.

If anyone by any remote chance knows anymore historically about the family and can shed light on any of this - I'd love to hear and learn more. Thank you.




Quote Reply
Report
 
Although nowadays it is unusual for a woman to move on without her children, it may be that the marriage was one of convenience , the marraige and birth took place in the same quarter (July/Aug'Sept )1901 , the child was born on August 22nd so that means they were married for only weeks before his birth.
Maybe at 21yrs old she regretted the marriage and birth of a child and it was easier for her to move away to earn a living and start a new life, leaving her son to be reared by his grandmother.
I notice that the baby was registered in Meriden and in later life he said born Coleshill, this makes me think that her parents sent her to an establishment in Coleshill to have her baby, that would be Father Hudsons which is in the Meriden registration area.Getting his birth certificate will maybe give more clues, eg. his birthplace and who registered his birth.

This is all speculation on my part, if only we could ask our ancestors these questions, :)
 
Last edited:
Censuses are only a snapshot and it's not always easy to work out what was going on. It may have been that in 1911 they were still together and just working apart for the money and it was just convenient for their son to live with his nan.

And that it was only when she started a new family (after her husband's death) that the break with her son became permanent. Not uncommon for children of previous marriages to end up with relatives.
 
Burbridge said:
Arthur did become a soldier in WW1 and died of his injuries in 1915.
Click to expand...

However, saying the above I think the death in 1915 is not your Arthur Samuel Dudley. The Arthur Samuel Dudley who died in 1915 was b1895, the son of Arthur James and Alberta Bertha Dudley.

Your Arthur Samuel Dudley appears to have died in 1942 and in 1921 he was still a barman at 70 Bromsgrove St.
 
Interesting to see that the Arthur Samuel who died in 1915 left his effects to his Father - so further evidence to support the above comment.
1690387856735.png
A pension ledger card suggests his Mother was Alberta Bertha.
 
Last edited:
1939 Arthur Samuel has married Violet Ellis in 1931 and they are at Baldwins road and he is a Barman incapacitated
they have with them Joseph E Dudley born 1917 but registered Ellis.
 
The one who died in 1915 born in Kings Norton is on the 1911 census with both parents Arthur and Alberta and siblings at 13 Victor Road Erdington he is listed as age 16.

Your Arthur is on the 1911 at the Roebuck as you said.
 
On the 1921 census, Arthur Samuel Dudley is listed as married. Not sure if that would imply to Florence or to Violet, if they were together and her son Joseph was his.
 
Hi, thank you for all your replies thus far.

Just to clarify - I can confirm that Arthur S Dudley that died in 1915 is the said Arthur that I mentioned. Born 1878 and died 1915.
 
Last edited:
I don't know what to say but to clarify what I found, no records found for an Arthur Samuel Dudley died in 1915, who was born in 1878.

Records found yesterday in various military records.

Arthur Samuel Dudley born 1878
Service number 25178 residence Sparkbrook
Discharged 1919
Awarded Silver war badge and Victory medal in 1920.

Arthur Samuel Dudley
enlisted on short attestation in 1914 age 19yrs 6 months
residence 38 Alexander road , Handsworth
service number 17715
died of injuries 1915 age 20 years.
 
Last edited:
NameArthur Samuel Dudley
Registration Date1878 [1878]
Quarter of the YearOct-Nov-Dec
Registration PlaceBirmingham, Warwickshire, England
Volume6d
Page149
 
Burbridge said:
Hi, I've just joined this brilliant website; my GGGFather William Manton b 1830 (leased Woodman Inn Cregor Street 1860s / Carpenters Arms - died there in 1869) and his son - my Great Grandfather Charles Manton b 1854 was the Brewer/Licensed Victualler Manager at the Witton Arms for a good many years - was listed as such on 1901/1911 Census's. Previously he was at Woodman Inn Cregor Street. My Grandmother Charles' daughter Florence Manton b 1880 - 1945 and son Harry Manton b 1887 also lived here at the Witton Arms opposite the football ground. Florence married a barman who maybe worked in the pub for them at this time - name of Arthur Samuel Dudley b 1878 - 1915.

Florence married Arthur Samuel Dudley in 1901 and Arthur Charles Dudley was born in 1901 - 1964. The 1911 Census confirms Florence living in Cuckfield working as a House Domestic/Cook in Cuckfield Vicarage. Her son Arthur C was living with his paternal Grandmother Elizabeth Dudley at 119 Summer Lane Birmingham whilst his father Arthur S Dudley was working/living at the Roebuck Inn William Street Birmingham.

The unresolved mystery is: WHY DID FLORENCE LEAVE HER MARRIAGE AND CHILD to move to Sussex? Arthur did become a soldier in WW1 and died of his injuries in 1915. But the separation had happened way before this event and they were obviously living apart with the child residing with his grandmother. It's not unusual for a woman to leave a marriage but is somewhat unusual for a mother to leave her child behind for good. Florence married my Grandfather Edward Burbridge in 1924 and their resultant children - my Father Leonard b 1916 - 1990 and Marian b 1917 - 2000 - were unaware of Arthur C. It would seem that Florence completely left her son for good and her other children with Edward knew nothing of their half brother.

If anyone by any remote chance knows anymore historically about the family and can shed light on any of this - I'd love to hear and learn more. Thank you.




Quote Reply
Report
Click to expand...
do you have the names of florences other children that she left...it does seem odd that a women would marry just a few weeks before giving birth especially in those days so as alberta has pointed out this could have been a marriage of convenience..maybe arthur samuel was not the father of arthur charles..also note that florence is on the 1901 living with parents and brother at witton road



lyn
 
Last edited:
Burbridge said:
Hi, thank you for all your replies thus far.

Just to clarify - I can confirm that Arthur S Dudley that died in 1915 is the said Arthur that I mentioned. Born 1878 and died 1915.
Click to expand...

There is no dob on his gravestone. If you search his army number listed on gravestone it will result in the Arthur Samuel Dudley born 1895. As mentioned Arthur Samuel Dudley b1878 is on the 1921 census.
 
Astoness said:
do you have the names of florences other children that she left...it does seem odd that a women would marry just a few weeks before giving birth especially in those days so as alberta has pointed out this could have been a marriage of convenience..maybe arthur samuel was not the father of arthur charles..also note that florence is on the 1901 living with parents and brother at witton road



lyn
Click to expand...
Hi, Florence (my maternal G Mother whom I never met as she died in 1945) as far as I am aware and as revealed in the 1911 Census only had one child with Arthur Samuel.
 
I am triangulating the info feedback comments re Arthur and his soldier status etc and death date and will come back to share my findings/thoughts - thanks everyone v much. Florence was an accomplished pianist and the Clerk in Holy Orders where she worked in 1911 went on the found the Trinity School of Music. Her next husband Edward Burbridge's father was an Itinerant baptist Minister (Strict and Particular). Florence married into a a very devout family. I suppose knowing this makes her leaving Birmingham with a son left with his paternal Grandmother rather curious to me.
 
Burbridge said:
NameArthur Samuel Dudley
Registration Date1878 [1878]
Quarter of the YearOct-Nov-Dec
Registration PlaceBirmingham, Warwickshire, England
Volume6d
Page149
Click to expand...
This birth is reg with mmn Morton
dudley born 1878.JPG
There is a marriage of Arthur Frederick Dudley to Elizabeth Moreton
Arthur F marriage 1875.JPG
In 1881 Arthur Frederick is with Elizabeth and children Arthur Samuel and Lily b 1880
Arthur 1891 census born 1878.JPG

In 1891 Arthur frederick and Elizabeth are with their son Arthur Samuel b 1878 and Lily
1690469352573.png
 
The birth reg in 1895 has mmn sanders.
Dudley born 1895.JPG
Marriage of Arthur James to Alberta Bertha in 1891
Arthur J marriage 1891.JPG
1901 census
Arthur J 1901 census.JPG
 
Are the details in IWM added by users?

The death is incorrect, there is no death reg. in Kings Norton in 1915. The death reg. is in Axbridge, Somerset, Age listed is 20. I think whoever has added those details has confused the 2 different Arthur Samuel Dudleys.
 
The point of my last 2 posts is to show that we have 2 Arthur Samuels both with Father's named Arthur which comlicates the matter.

Question: do you have the marriage cert of "your" Arthur's marriage to Florence. If so what is his Father's name and occupation? This could be key to establishing which Arthur Samuel is yours.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top