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Villa Cross

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Birmingham Daily Post | Saturday 09 January 1875
The above clip is interesting. On the ENTIRE photo we can see a patch of ground in front of the Villa Cross which seems to be paved. On this ground there is a sign post on the Heathfield Road side bearing the name of the inn. At the bottom of the post are two men and behind them can be seen a white horse. The writer of the letter was not to happy about people using that land as some kind of 'public stable.' And here's the photographic evidence that they did. The letter appeared at the start of 1875. The photo has been given a date c1890. If this is true then the unpopular use of the land as a public stable continued for fifteen years. Or perhaps the photo is earlier than we originally thought.

Incidentally the tram lines shown opened on the 23rd November 1874.
 
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Birmingham Daily Post | Saturday 21 September 1867
The above is a report by the chairman of the lighting inspectors for Aston. Note that by 21 September 1867, twenty nine of the principle streets in the borough were already lit (by223 lamps). (Would, the roads leading to Villa Cross would be classed as principle streets. Would Heathfield Road have been lit by Handsworth? Is the lamp at the top of Heathfield Road opposite the cross roads in Villa Road?) The chairman states that in the next phase ALL the principle streets of the borough and some back streets would be lit. (Could it be that the three lamps shown at the cross were paid for privately by subscription?) Whatever the answers are to these questions there are two things that seems quite clear. Compared to Birmingham Aston was way behind in lighting their streets (as was Handsworth); and, the three lamps shown most probably were erected c1866-1870. That's very close to 1874, and not far off 1890. I assume, therefore that there is a strong likelihood that the lamp shown on the left is the original founders' lamp. If not, then the original lamp must have had a very very short 'shelf-life'

But let's not get too excited. The records on file in Birmingham Library, however, may give dates of erection for the lighting of each street in the boroughs of Aston and Handsworth. We'll wait a little while longer before joy, or disappointment. UTV
 
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Birmingham Daily Post | Tuesday 04 December 1866
I've posted this because it lists the roads already lit, and the roads which are to be lit next year. At the time of publication only 126 lamps were lit regularly in the manor. Hunters Lane, caused a problem because Handsworth wouldn't light their side. Amazingly, a gentleman on the Handsworth side paid for one lamp there to be lit and promised to do so for the next year.
Disappointingly, there is no mention of the four roads that meet at villa cross.
 
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Birmingham Daily Post | Wednesday 03 January 1894
As the assault took place 'on Sunday' John Ogden was the gaffer in 1893.
VCI address here is on Lozells Road.

Looking at the ENTIRE photo, yet again, the people are very blurred while the buildings are sharp, evidence that a long exposure time was required. Carefully composed photo I assume by a professional. Unless photographer short of cash to by up to date equipment then this looks more like an 1870s photo than a late 80s photo.

(Reminder - Thomas Hale died Saturday 13 October 1877 aged 62. John Ogden the gaffer in 1893. See before)

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Suicide at the inn bar
Edward W Bradbury landlord of VCI at the date 30/10/82
Birmingham & Aston Chronicle | Saturday 04 November 1882
Birmingham Mail | Monday 30 October 1882

On photo, no tramways visible going down Heathfield Road or Barker Street. Find out when they first did?

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Provisional Orders for Birmingham and Western Districts Tramways
Tramway along Heathfield Road through Villa Cross and down Barker Street to Hunters Lane
Walsall Advertiser | Saturday 25 November 1882 | British Newspaper Archive

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Proposed new tram Barker Street to Lozells Road. Referred to Highways committee.
Birmingham & Aston Chronicle | Saturday 06 December 1884

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"To construct tramways in Lozells Road from the terminus of the tramways already laid to Barker Street, George street .." Birmingham & Aston Chronicle | Saturday 16 January 1886

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Apartment on Barker Street, bus and tram routes (Does mean - close to bus and tram routes?)
Birmingham Mail | Tuesday 29 August 1882

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House ad in Barker Street, tram close, (Does this mean - a tram stop is close?)
Birmingham Mail | Monday 09 July 1883

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Steam (pretty sure) trams up and running on (definitely) Lozells Road October 1885. And naughty boys attacking them in 1886!
Resource Details - Birmingham Images
Resource Details - Birmingham Images

"Now, in around 1890 the Wolverhampton & Dudley Brewery was formed with the joining forces of of H & J Banks with two other brewing concerns C. C. Smith of Fox Brewery Wolverhampton, established in 1868 on the junction of Worcester Street and Little Brickkiln Street. and George Thompson , Victoria and Dudley Breweries of Dudley who had been in business for fifty years or more."
Is this the Fox brewery making ENTIRE on the photo?
A Fox Of A Different Colour - Lost Wolverhampton
 
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:joy:
It's my holy grail. Has to be done. :innocent:
You could write a short television series based around the Villa Cross Inn at that time. Barmaid scandal was news country wide. The suicide at the bar using a revolver bought in Wheeler Street. The murder at the cab stand. Thomas Hale: the court case that made 'em laugh; then accidentally poisoning himself to death. All the auctions, meetings, complaints; the cab and tram wars on the crossing. Handsworth and Aston board bickering about the street lights. And on the photo, far left, is that a guy kneeling by a bucket with his crutch against the railings?
It's been fun. :)
Eventually, it'll come down to the Birmingham Library records and/or the National Archive Records :eek:
 
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www.midlandspubs.co.uk said:
I was thinking that if you invested as much energy as you have done on researching the lamp you could perhaps find the cup that was lost! ;)
Click to expand...


Keiron, pub historian, with your specialist knowledge, can you not help us out with dating of the pub shown? is it - Fox Co's. ENTIRE? Or is there another letter or mark hiding behind the climber? Any further help really, really would be appreciated.
 
Myrddin said:
Just checking. In the same way Lozells Lane became Lozells Road, was today's Hunters Road called Hunters Lane c1800-1900.
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yes quite right hunters road used to be called hunters lane but well before 1900..think ive got maps showing hunters lane as early as 1840 maybe even earlier than that..much the same as nursery road off hunters road used to be known as nursery terrace

lyn
 
Astoness said:
yes quite right hunters road used to be called hunters lane but well before 1900..think ive got maps showing hunters lane as early as 1840 maybe even earlier than that..much the same as nursery road off hunters road used to be known as nursery terrace

lyn
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Thanks for that. The tramway routes make sense now. Cheers.:) Am still having trouble pinning down when tramways first went down Heathfield Road. They are not on the photo and if we knew when they appeared then it would help us date the photo. Any ideas?
 
sorry i cant help with that but if you ask the question on our trams section you may get a better response as our tram experts may not read this thread if it is of no interest to them..click on link below


The Trams

birminghamhistory.co.uk birminghamhistory.co.uk
 
Astoness said:
sorry i cant help with that but if you ask the question on our trams section you may get a better response as our tram experts may not read this thread if it is of no interest to them..click on link below


The Trams

birminghamhistory.co.uk birminghamhistory.co.uk
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Thank you. Will do so. I'm an idiot for not thinking of that myself. :)
Just put a post up on the Trams threads.

Anyone who wants to follow the tram thread for Villa Cross follow the link below
Dates of the first tramways up to Villa Cross from Heathfield Road, Villa Road, Lozells Road and Barker Street. | Birmingham History Forum
 
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Astoness said:
yes quite right hunters road used to be called hunters lane but well before 1900..think ive got maps showing hunters lane as early as 1840 maybe even earlier than that..much the same as nursery road off hunters road used to be known as nursery terrace

lyn
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Sorry to trouble you again. But I've been told that one of the four founders lived near to Villa Cross in Little Hunters Lane. I can't find that on my map. Was it maybe the very top of Hunters Lane past the junction with Barker Street or was it elsewhere?
 
Just to say on this Villa Cross thread that as a result of the tram thread ..

Dates of the first tramways up to Villa Cross from Heathfield Road, Villa Road, Lozells Road and Barker Street.

Resource Details - Birmingham Images The lamp shown on the left hand side of the above photo maybe the original Founders Lamp of Aston Villa Football Club. I desperately want to find out if it is, :), or if it isn't, :(. To do so I need: an accurate date for when the photo was taken; and, the...
birminghamhistory.co.uk
.. I think we can date the ENTIRE photo somewhere between 1874 and 1885
Reminder that the the 'Founders Lamp' probably put up somewhere between 1866 and 1870.
 
Myrddin said:
Sorry to trouble you again. But I've been told that one of the four founders lived near to Villa Cross in Little Hunters Lane. I can't find that on my map. Was it maybe the very top of Hunters Lane past the junction with Barker Street or was it elsewhere?
Click to expand...

i believe little hunters lane ran from barker st to villa road..sure i have a map showing it but cooking now so will look later unless someone else can provide you with a map

lyn
 
Astoness said:
i believe little hunters lane ran from barker st to villa road..sure i have a map showing it but cooking now so will look later unless someone else can provide you with a map

lyn
Click to expand...
Since I asked, I found out that the same question had been asked elsewhere and Mikejee gave the same answer as you. All good.
 
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Birmingham & Aston Chronicle | Saturday 12 August 1882
This clip shows a letter which complains about W Graham having paved a portion of the footpath opposite [in front of] his premises with expensive red granite (at the tax payers' expense). On the ENTIRE photo, I suggest, this paving shows up clearly at the Barker Street entrance to his premises. The date of the letter is 1882. As this is one, of a total of five historical complaints made against Mr Graham, it does not necessarily mean that the paving was laid in 1882. But it was there in 1882, and it's on the photo. (I suggest then that the photo can now be dated 1974-1882.) What!? Can't believe I wrote that! I should have said that it suggests the photo can now be dated not later that 1885 (tramway lines) and not before the red granite was laid, which could be as late as 1882, but could be years earlier.

In the photo we can see the pavement on Heathfield Road, where 'the lamp' is, has not yet been paved with stone.

It is noticeable that the road itself looks in a terrible state. I suppose that when the tramway was laid in 1874 the macadam would have been pristine; well, as pristine as macadam could ever be. (How many years it took to deteriorate to the state shown I can't really guess. But it's an observation worth noting). Macadam was repaired often. Filling and rolling. It was big news when the first steam rollers were purchased to roll the macadam hard and smooth.
 
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I may be wrong about this, but I’d always thought that tarmacadam wasn’t widely used until motor cars came along. Major roads in rural and sub urban areas would have been surfaced with gravel or clinker perhaps?
 
Myrddin said:
Thanks for correcting me there, Enel. Of course, I meant simply, macadam. I'll change it.
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Sorry Myrddin, I didn’t intend to correct, but maybe to flush out one of the many experts here who might like to inform us about nineteenth century road construction methods. I’ve always wondered how they managed to keep the tram tracks clear, what with all the horse-drawn traffic churning up the roads. Sorry drifting off topic. My bad.
 
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Birmingham & Aston Chronicle | Saturday 01 April 1882
This shows that Mr W Graham had both shop fronts paved in granite - at the tax payers expense (expensive red granite that contrasted with the other pavement and, as we can see from the ENTIRE photo, added an air of class to the front of his premises). He also held a celebration at which his invited guests had to pay for their dinner. Both shop fronts paved! Does this mean the pavement in front of both entrances? The ENTIRE photo shows one entrance and the difference in paving before it is clearly shown. Politicians, eh!
 
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"However the original tram route through West Bromwich did not pay its way, and the service from Carters Green to Dudley Port ceased in December 1873, and to Hill Top in September 1875, but a new branch, closer to Birmingham, opened on 23 November 1874, off Soho Hill at Villa Road and going through "The Village" to a point in Lozells Road past the Villa Cross pub, where a depot was built. Stables were provided next-door to the "Red Lion" in Soho Road and beside the "New Inns" on Holyhead Road. "
Handsworth - Preserving the History of Handsworth (handsworthhistory.co.uk
To be used in conjunction with the map in order to visualize the tramway shown in the ENTIRE photo
 
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Well this is an interesting letter. In 1863 there was a "fine line of lights" lit down Heathfield Road, while Hunters Lane had lights that were not lit because the residents would not pay the going rate. Hmmm. So lamp posts must have been there at the top of Heathfield Road at Villa Cross in 1863. And if there were lamps in Hunters Lane and Barker Street there would certainly have been lamps at the top of Barker Street and on the Lozells Road at the crossing. How many years had they been there? Would the lamp posts survive to 1885? On our photo the lamp at the top of Heathfield Road was the responsibility of Handsworth Local Board, while the other two prominent lamps, at the corner of Barker Street and on the Lozells Road were the responsibility of Aston Local Board. All three appear identical.
 
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Myrddin said:
Hi to all following this thread. Much of the searching you all have done has been confirmed by Kieron of www.midlandspubs.co.uk. He emailed me the following:

"In my humble opinion I think around 1890 is not too far off the mark. I think I can see the name of Barker, a grocer at No.231 at this time. I am not sure when Fox & Co. first operated the Villa Cross Inn - they were certainly listed in 1879. They were brewers/wine & spirits merchants. Their interest was eventually acquired by the Holt Brewery Co. which you can see on the later photograph. John Ogden was the licensee in the mid-late 1890s. By the way, Entire is a type of strong ale popular in the 19th century, though some breweries still produced a type of Entire Ale. At the time of your query the gaffer of the Villa Cross was Thomas Hale. The coffee and tea dealer William Graham was also trading on the other corner in the in late 1870s."

All the evidence supplied proves that the first photo posted is the earliest c1890. It was at a time when the Villa Cross Inn was owned by the brewers Fox Co, who were wine and spirits merchants and they were advertising an ale called 'Entire' on the front of the inn. At this time there was no street lamp in front of the Inn. In 1874 the manager was Thomas Hale. The cab stand was there by 1882 (Prof Carl Chinn). Looks like the photo could be some time between 1882-1893.

My attention now must be concentrated on the three street lamps shown at Villa Cross. IF they were there in 1874 then one of them, almost certainly the one on the left at the top of Heathfield road, IS the original Founders Lamp of Aston Villa Football Club.

It occurs to me there may be a line of investigation.

We can search for the year in which gas lamps have been erected at Villa Cross prior to 1874 ( the year of the meeting ) and up to 1894 (when the Inn was a Holt Co property ). If we find a date for the erection of the lamp post in front of the Inn it means we can limit the latest date for the photograph to that year or perhaps one year before. If lamp posts erected before 1874 were not replaced by the dating of the photograph then one of them is the original Founders lamp. (I just don't see four Methodists using the lights of an inn in preference to a street lamp).

Perhaps newspapers reported the erection of street lamps in those days. It might have been a big thing I guess.

Perhaps there are municipal archives that show the details.

If anyone has a different photo of Villa Cross during the Fox Co brewery's time, please post.

Any help very, very gratefully received.
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The licensee's in a various Kelly's Directories:
1872 & 1874: Thomas Hale
1876, 1878, 1879, 1880 & 1884: Fox & Co.
1888: Archibald Hunter
1892 & 1896: John Ogden
1903: Holt Brewery
 
The licensee's of the Villa Cross Inn/Tavern in various Kelly's Directories:
1872 & 1874: Thomas Hale
1876, 1878, 1879, 1880 & 1884: Fox & Co.
1888: Archibald Hunter
1892 & 1896: John Ogden
1903: Holt Brewery

The 'Entire' photo on post 24 shows both the pub and Graham's across the road at 260 Lozells Road. Graham's appear at that address in the following Kelly's Directories:

1878, 1879, 1880, 1884, 1888, 1892, and 1896 (Graham's were not at 260 Lozells Road in either the 1876 nor 1903 directories).

Consequently,
Fox & Co. were licensee sometime between 1874 to 1888.
Graham's were at 260 Lozells Road sometime between 1876 to 1903

Therefore photo on post 24 was taken sometime between 1876 and 1888.
 
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