Jazz players

[Bob Davis]

dickie valentine was at the birmingham hippodrome in 1958..certainly looks like him in photo 3 and is that him signing autographs in pic 1

He also regularly came to the Town Hall with Ted Heath and his band and Lita Roza and Dennis Lotus. Those big band concerts at the Town Hall used to be excellent, Ted Heath, Jack Parnell, Vic Lewis (Playing Kenton's music), the guy who did Oranges & Lemons on the Kettle Drums, Oscar Rabin when he formed his big band and there were a couple of others who I cannot remember. Although the group of us were modern jazz fans, we used to go to and see Humph and all the trad groups, Chris Barber and Terry Lightfoot.
Bob
PS Eric Delaney for Oranges and Lemons? Forgot Johnny Dankworth

 

[sospiri]

Bob,

Both Humph and Chris Barber went well away from trad and into mainstream. And, of course, Dankworth was never anything else but a moderm jazz musician right from his early days with Ronnie Scott and Vic Feldman and others. On the other hand, Ted Heath didn't like jazz and insisted that his instrumentalists played the written solos rather than improvising. Of course, a few ignored his directives and it was their own way of not becoming bored, though many did, particularly when Jack Parnell left to form his own big band.

Unfortunately, Parnell didn't do his homework properly and hadn't got the jazz & swing jobs that his musicians expected. They ended up playing theatres, backing people like Tommy Trinder and playing the same thing night after night. A musician's job is sometimes not such a happy one and they resorted to practical jokes, nipping over the road for a quick pint, and firing paper pellets about. One of the pellets hit Trinder on his rather large nose and almost resulted in Parnell's band getting the sack.

But Humph always had a good band and I saw him several times at the Town Hall. I saw the Barber band in Swindon just before I moved over here. The ten piece band, who had learned quite complex arrangements and didn't need the sheet music, sounded great. The late Kenny Ball did a couple of guest spots with them, but sadly he looked ill and didn't play well.

Maurice

 

[Bob Davis]

Bob,

Both Humph and Chris Barber went well away from trad and into mainstream. And, of course, Dankworth was never anything else but a moderm jazz musician right from his early days with Ronnie Scott and Vic Feldman and others. On the other hand, Ted Heath didn't like jazz and insisted that his instrumentalists played the written solos rather than improvising. Of course, a few ignored his directives and it was their own way of not becoming bored, though many did, particularly when Jack Parnell left to form his own big band.

Unfortunately, Parnell didn't do his homework properly and hadn't got the jazz & swing jobs that his musicians expected. They ended up playing theatres, backing people like Tommy Trinder and playing the same thing night after night. A musician's job is sometimes not such a happy one and they resorted to practical jokes, nipping over the road for a quick pint, and firing paper pellets about. One of the pellets hit Trinder on his rather large nose and almost resulted in Parnell's band getting the sack.

But Humph always had a good band and I saw him several times at the Town Hall. I saw the Barber band in Swindon just before I moved over here. The ten piece band, who had learned quite complex arrangements and didn't need the sheet music, sounded great. The late Kenny Ball did a couple of guest spots with them, but sadly he looked ill and didn't play well.

Maurice

Maurice
That was when we gave Humph the cold shoulder, when he crossed over to mainstream. Heath of course was a purist who looked for perfection and correctness in all that he did and it always showed through.

Bob

 

[Michael_Ingram]

I saw many concerts at the Town Hall in the 50s including Humphrey Littleton.
This photo is from the local paper of a Lionel Hampton concert in 1956. Sitting down half cut off on our right is my friend from school, Tony Green from Erdington, I am sitting next to him behind the rain coat. We were sitting behind the band near the organ

 

[sospiri]

Michael,

I saw the same Hampton concert tour in 1956 at the Victoria Hall, Hanley as I was doing my National Service in the RAF near Market Drayton at the time. Some enterprising sergeant, who was a jazz fan, got up a party and we hired a coach. A good night and a nice change from everyday life of the Maintenance Unit.

Maurice

 

[adap2it]

Maurice
That was when we gave Humph the cold shoulder, when he crossed over to mainstream. Heath of course was a purist who looked for perfection and correctness in all that he did and it always showed through.

Bob

I always felt that the so called crossover was the reverse...trad was the mainstream. I went to the town hall with my dad many times to see Humph...Freddie Randall..Chris Barber et al. They were trad musicians which was mainstream popular jazz at the time. Then many musicians discovered drugs and modern jazz became more accessible. Having left Brum at the age of 16, I never had the opportunity to explore the town as an adult.
Dave A

 

[Bob Davis]

I always felt that the so called crossover was the reverse...trad was the mainstream. I went to the town hall with my dad many times to see Humph...Freddie Randall..Chris Barber et al. They were trad musicians which was mainstream popular jazz at the time. Then many musicians discovered drugs and modern jazz became more accessible. Having left Brum at the age of 16, I never had the opportunity to explore the town as an adult.
Dave A

Interesting comment, Humph himself called it mainstream, I would agree that trad jazz was the mainstream, but starting to play popular ballads etc which is what happened at the crossover was the point where we walked away. Trad Jazz was blues, funeral marches, Onions and the Saints, not a Dixieland version of how much is that doggie in the window? or similar, leave the doggie song to the modern jazz men, who could turn it into a classic. Nothing like seeing a good tenor or alto sax man playing about with a 1930s/40s/early fifties standard. Take JJ & Kai with Thou Swell or the various instrumentalists with There will never be another you, Krupa and How high the Moon, Modern Jazz and Big Band yes, Trad Jaz -no!

Bob

 

[sospiri]

Heath didn't really like jazz at all, but had to go along with it. The soloists were meant to play the written solos, and many of them did, but playing the same solo night after night was boring to say the least. So, of course, people like Ronnie Scott, when he was in the band just played his own solos and got black looks from Heath. Their cards were marked and as soon as there was an excuse to fire them, that's what Heath did. That attitude created a lot of resentment in the band, despite the fact that Heath was playing good money. And when Jack Parnell left, he took a load of musicians with him, but by then Scott had already been fired.

At the opposite end of the spectrum was Duke Ellington, who really wasn't strict enough.

Maurice

 

[I Am Nico]

Interesting comment, Humph himself called it mainstream, I would agree that trad jazz was the mainstream, but starting to play popular ballads etc which is what happened at the crossover was the point where we walked away. Trad Jazz was blues, funeral marches, Onions and the Saints, not a Dixieland version of how much is that doggie in the window? or similar, leave the doggie song to the modern jazz men, who could turn it into a classic. Nothing like seeing a good tenor or alto sax man playing about with a 1930s/40s/early fifties standard. Take JJ & Kai with Thou Swell or the various instrumentalists with There will never be another you, Krupa and How high the Moon, Modern Jazz and Big Band yes, Trad Jaz -no!

Bob

Got the sheet music somewhere to There Will be Another You, was it Beryl Templeman? I am hanging on to them like grim death, from being chucked out, and my 78s though nothing to play them on.

 

[Richard Dye]

Interesting comment, Humph himself called it mainstream, I would agree that trad jazz was the mainstream, but starting to play popular ballads etc which is what happened at the crossover was the point where we walked away. Trad Jazz was blues, funeral marches, Onions and the Saints, not a Dixieland version of how much is that doggie in the window? or similar, leave the doggie song to the modern jazz men, who could turn it into a classic. Nothing like seeing a good tenor or alto sax man playing about with a 1930s/40s/early fifties standard. Take JJ & Kai with Thou Swell or the various instrumentalists with There will never be another you, Krupa and How high the Moon, Modern Jazz and Big Band yes, Trad Jaz -no!

Bob

Bob, and don't forget Paul Desmond, the MJK especially when they collaborated with Dave Brubeck! Just love all that stuff!

 

[Richard Dye]

Heath didn't really like jazz at all, but had to go along with it. The soloists were meant to play the written solos, and many of them did, but playing the same solo night after night was boring to say the least. So, of course, people like Ronnie Scott, when he was in the band just played his own solos and got black looks from Heath. Their cards were marked and as soon as there was an excuse to fire them, that's what Heath did. That attitude created a lot of resentment in the band, despite the fact that Heath was playing good money. And when Jack Parnell left, he took a load of musicians with him, but by then Scott had already been fired.

At the opposite end of the spectrum was Duke Ellington, who really wasn't strict enough.

Maurice

Maurice, I agree about the Duke, but he did not represent himself as strict anything (unfortunately).

 

[Bob Davis]

Bob, and don't forget Paul Desmond, the MJK especially when they collaborated with Dave Brubeck! Just love all that stuff!

With you all the way there, my favourites were the experimenters from Kenton and Sauter Finnegan to Chico Hamilton and the flute and oboe boys. I have a huge collection now of the compilation albums issued by a London record company and it includes the Swings to TV, a brilliant album. I could go on, but do not want to upset the Mods. Oh Happy Day, the 1953 version of course

Bob

 

[Richard Dye]

With you all the way there, my favourites were the experimenters from Kenton and Sauter Finnegan to Chico Hamilton and the flute and oboe boys. I have a huge collection now of the compilation albums issued by a London record company and it includes the Swings to TV, a brilliant album. I could go on, but do not want to upset the Mods. Oh Happy Day, the 1953 version of course

Bob

Kenton & Hamilton are super especially on CD's and now a few coming back on 33's. not too familiar with Finnegan, will check him out!

 

[Bob Davis]

Kenton & Hamilton are super especially on CD's and now a few coming back on 33's. not too familiar with Finnegan, will check him out!

Sauter Finnehan, huge big band used a harp amongst other instruments. Hits with Doodletown Fifers and Sleigh Ride. I would think there are You tube references

 

[Richard Dye]

Sauter Finnehan, huge big band used a harp amongst other instruments. Hits with Doodletown Fifers and Sleigh Ride. I would think there are You tube references

Bob, OMG...........https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sauter+finegan+sleigh+ride&docid=608053299291947601&mid=A163FFC07455B7A38FB6A163FFC07455B7A38FB6&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

So refreshing and something new (to me) to follow!

 

[Johnfromstaffs]

Don’t think much of Vaughn Monroe as a vocalist!

The CD is dated 1997, I can’t remember where I bought it, but it was probably in the HMV shop in a place called Oxford Street, in a small town down south somewhere.

 

[Bob Davis]

Don’t think much of Vaughn Monroe as a vocalist!

The CD is dated 1997, I can’t remember where I bought it, but it was probably in the HMV shop in a place called Oxford Street, in a small town down south somewhere.

A CD I missed, some unknown names except for Vaughan Monroe. Not really comparable to the jazz big bands, but famous for their unusual instrument combinations.

Bob

 

[Bob Davis]

A CD I missed, some unknown names except for Vaughan Monroe. Not really comparable to the jazz big bands, but famous for their unusual instrument combinations.

Bob

Further to this Monroe was quite a busy man and as I thought also had his own big band as well as hits as a singer. A lot about him on Google, particularly the references to the Camel road show. I suppose if trying to give a comparison of to where the band was Heath and the others who visited the Town Hall were in the same league, figuratively, as Basie et al, while Munro compared to Geraldo. A personal view.
Bob

 

[adap2it]

BTW...good to see the jazz guys getting exposure. I do hope I can contribute, I'm not that familiar with much of what has been posted so far. I'm sure my dad would have had more knowledge. He was more into the American stuff when it came to big bands.
Dave A

 

[oldbrit]

MILES!! Who could ask for anything more?

 

[sospiri]

Until he went really way out, John, and got onto the drugs again. In the Milestones, Kinda Blue, and Sketches of Spain with Gil Evans days, he was great and could attract any of the top musicians that he wanted to work with. Then he was anti-drugs and produced a clean fresh sound without vibrato, that was superb. But after that era, it got ill-disciplined and started to go downhill.

And, of course, Gil Evans came from the days of the US college bands of the 1920s & 30s, and was the arranger for vocalist Skinnay Ellis' band for many years. But the lure of jazz, big brass sections, and unusual instrumentation was always there and although Ellis could pay good money, it was the Ronnie Scott syndrome (post #8) again and not interesting enough for Gil.

Miles with his repuration could buy studio time and the big brass ensembles that satisfied them both - have a listen to Kurt Weill's My Ship from the Miles Ahead album below - beautiful chords! Both were, to a certain extent, oddballs, but remained firm friends until Gil's death in 1988 and Miles died two or three years afterwards.

Just in case you're dozing off, I've added a track from Miles' first hit Sextet group album. Ticking along you might say! Enjoy.

Maurice

 

[Bob Davis]

MILES!! Who could ask for anything more?

I did not know he recorded that.

Bob

 

[Bob Davis]

Until he went really way out, John, and got onto the drugs again. In the Milestones, Kinda Blue, and Sketches of Spain with Gil Evans days, he was great and could attract any of the top musicians that he wanted to work with. Then he was anti-drugs and produced a clean fresh sound without vibrato, that was superb. But after that era, it got ill-disciplined and started to go downhill.

And, of course, Gil Evans came from the days of the US college bands of the 1920s & 30s, and was the arranger for vocalist Skinnay Ellis' band for many years. But the lure of jazz, big brass sections, and unusual instrumentation was always there and although Ellis could pay good money, it was the Ronnie Scott syndrome (post #8) again and not interesting enough for Gil.

Miles with his repuration could buy studio time and the big brass ensembles that satisfied them both - have a listen to Kurt Weill's My Ship from the Miles Ahead album below - beautiful chords! Both were, to a certain extent, oddballs, but remained firm friends until Gil's death in 1988 and Miles died two or three years afterwards.

Just in case you're dozing off, I've added a track from Miles' first hit Sextet group album. Ticking along you might say! Enjoy.

Maurice

With you all the way there, my favourites were the experimenters from Kenton and Sauter Finnegan to Chico Hamilton and the flute and oboe boys. I have a huge collection now of the compilation albums issued by a London record company and it includes the Swings to TV, a brilliant album. I could go on, but do not want to upset the Mods. Oh Happy Day, the 1953 version of course

Bob

Anybody who wants to catch up on the jaz from the 50s and 60s, Avid Records do some superb CDs that put four LPs on one CD and the prices are quite reasonable.

Bob

 

[sospiri]

And Billy May did some beautiful stuff too, Bob, although he's not generally regarded as a jazzer. It should not be forgotten that Birmingham's own Brian Newton, has a large collection of Kenton arrangements given to him by Stan some years ago. Brian, a former trombonist with the Norman Dovery rehearsal band, and also in the trombone section of our Sunday rehearsal band in the late 1950s, started his own big band many years back and used to perform once a month at the Triplex Social Club abd more recently on the first Monday of every month at the Red Lion in Vicarage Road, Kings Heath. However, the last documented appearance was back in May this year and his Facebook page has now gone quiet, but this may be due to Covid, of course. A band well worth listening to if concerts are revived. It was reputed to be the longest runnign big band in the UK.

EDIT: Whilst on the subject of Billy May, here's one of his arrangements for the master himself, Sinatra. I actually have a copy of this hand-written arrangement - well half of it - and no one knows how is came to get into the public domain in the first place. It was passed to me down the grapevine, and is a nice, if brief, insight into May's arranging.

Maurice

 

[Bob Davis]

And Billy May did some beautiful stuff too, Bob, although he's not generally regarded as a jazzer. It should not be forgotten that Birmingham's own Brian Newton, has a large collection of Kenton arrangements given to him by Stan some years ago. Brian, a former trombonist with the Norman Dovery rehearsal band, and also in the trombone section of our Sunday rehearsal band in the late 1950s, started his own big band many years back and used to perform once a month at the Triplex Social Club abd more recently on the first Monday of every month at the Red Lion in Vicarage Road, Kings Heath. However, the last documented appearance was back in May this year and his Facebook page has now gone quiet, but this may be due to Covid, of course. A band well worth listening to if concerts are revived. It was reputed to be the longest runnign big band in the UK.

EDIT: Whilst on the subject of Billy May, here's one of his arrangements for the master himself, Sinatra. I actually have a copy of this hand-written arrangement - well half of it - and no one knows how is came to get into the public domain in the first place. It was passed to me down the grapevine, and is a nice, if brief, insight into May's arranging.

Maurice

Maurice
I have one good 'slurping saxes' CD and he was quite jazzy I always felt. His playing and arrangements were good for Sinatra as his breathing deteriorated and following the superb Swinging Lovers LP with Nelson Riddles orchestra this and Come Dance with me were well crafted albums. But look at the 'jazz' men on them Si Zetner, Buddy Collette, Milt Bernhart, Shelley Mann, Pete Condoli, Harry Edison, Willie Smith and Alvin Stoller to name the well known ones. I always thought that all of Kentons arrangements went to Vic Lewis, who was always referring to my friend Stan.

Bob

 

[Johnfromstaffs]

Back in the days of the annual Police ball, Humph visited the Top of the World in Stafford and provided us punters with a memorable evening, his band making the resident outfit sound a bit ordinary. (Not difficult though.) The band did a concert at Keele, not long before Humph’s passing. He didn’t play for long, sitting on a tall chair at the back of the small stage supporting his band. My pal and I got a handshake from him on our way out of the hall, a happy memory.

I used to listen to his “Jazz Record Requests” programme on the beeb, one remark has remained in my memory, after a really laid back rendition of some standard by a progressive outfit, he said “Well,,,,,nobody got his collar wet playing that one.”

 

[sospiri]

Bob,

The Kenton arrangements - a great wodge of them as I have seen them with my own eyes - were given to Brian by Stan in the early 1960s during one of Stan's visits to Brum. The story of how this came about used to be on Brian's website, but alas that website is no more and there is just a rather dormant Facebook page with very little content. I don't have any contact details for Brian at all.

A lot of the jazz musicians made the bulk of their living from the large orchestras and session work, and the advent of sampling and people like Hans Zimmer have killed off all the music work in the film studios. Covid has put the final nail in the coffin, not that any of the guys you mentioned have been around for ten or more years.

John,

Humph had a darned good band on the few occasions that I went so see him, and he was a gentleman, no doubt about that.

Maurice

 

[adap2it]

MILES!! Who could ask for anything more?

How about Kilometers?
Dave A

 

[oldbrit]

I still have a collection from my old days Art Pepper was one of my favs. Of course "Bird" and Paul D I even tried myself at one time HaHa!!

 

[oldbrit]

Got to see a lot of the tops in the business, when I moved to USA in 1957 Went to Birdland NYC, Monk. Bird and Blackhawk in San Fran. Miles, Trane and The Lighthouse in Hermosa beach. California, Shelly Mann Conti Condoli Frank Ros Sat in a few times there. Great times, lots of fun, glad though, that I got out of the music Business and am still alive to tell the tales.