• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
  • HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
    Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
    im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
    we are now using a backup solution

James Turner Street

B

barnard

knowlegable brummie
Does anyone know who "James Turner" was that the Street in Winston Green was named after that has been dubbed "Benefits Street" in the C4 program ?

 
James Turner - Street
From Carl Chinn's Book "The Streets of Brum - Part 3"

James turner was a Birmingham gun barrel manufacturer who tenanted Holford Mill, Handsworth on the bend in the River Tame above Witton in the 1850s and 1860s. It seems unlikely that this road was named after him.
There is another James Turner, who was minister at Cannon Street Baptist Church from 1754-80. This is regarded as the 'mother' church of Baptists in Birmingham. Turner was instrumental in firmly establishing Baptists locally.
 
thanks for that info two...i was also wondering where james turner st got its name from..

cheers

lyn
 
Last edited:
hi jean ;
yes its a disgrace the way that the one time gloriuos street it was as i recall it when i was young i courted a young lady by the name of joan
down that street but sadly like most places all streets are benifitt streets wide in brum; not just james turner street
and i have ben whatching since the beginnings of it and to be quite honest i am in favour of channel 4 documenting it and do not bann it from the rest
of the five series that are due to follow i have channeled an email to them as well in favour beause i can see the out come of this programe
what they are trying to do and to highlight this subject which i do under stand to be ;
but i will not say no more than the rest of you other wise i might be seem as political i was going to asked questions myself last week
and mention the street name of james turner but i felt our moderaters would think its abit political subject as it is a media senitive subject and name
still my answers are the same as some one beat me to it and whom and where was james turner street come from and whom after its taken;
now we all know ; best wishes astonian;
 
I think Channel 4 chose their subjects ... ahem ... carefully!
It's quite a long road remember!
 
Two said:
James Turner - Street
From Carl Chinn's Book "The Streets of Brum - Part 3"

James turner was a Birmingham gun barrel manufacturer who tenanted Holford Mill, Handsworth on the bend in the River Tame above Witton in the 1850s and 1860s. It seems unlikely that this road was named after him.
There is another James Turner, who was minister at Cannon Street Baptist Church from 1754-80. This is regarded as the 'mother' church of Baptists in Birmingham. Turner was instrumental in firmly establishing Baptists locally.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply @Two

I was aware that Carl Chinn claimed he knew the answer as the website of his publisher Brewin Books poses the question

"Was James Turner Street in Winson Green named after the gun barrel manufacturer of that name or was the street name derived from James Turner, the 18th century Baptist minister from Cannon Street Church?"
Click to expand...

I went along to the Library of Birmingham but it appears they or any Birmingham Library has a copy (Or as least their online catalogue does not list any although they seem to have lots of Part One and Part Five in the series)

I did find out from a book in the reference section that there was a "James Turner House" in the area prior to the
road being built.

I am therefore not convinced that the question is correctly answered there must be some record in the archives
when the decision to name the road was made.

P.S. This thread is not about the Channel Four program but about the origin of the street name
 
barnard said:
P.S. This thread is not about the Channel Four program but about the origin of the street name
Click to expand...

Well pointed out Barnard as the question you asked is a very valid one - it will be a great help if folk remember that. Save the Admin some work as well.
 
Is it possible is that the street was named after James Richard Turner of Rotten Park Lodge (d. 1933), who built many hundreds of houses in Birmingham and Smethwick around the turn of the century and was also active in local politics?
 
BorninBrum said:
Is it possible is that the street was named after James Richard Turner of Rotten Park Lodge (d. 1933), who built many hundreds of houses in Birmingham and Smethwick around the turn of the century and was also active in local politics?
Click to expand...
Thanks we now have a new possibility and this one makes a lot of sense.

Need to spend time at the at the Library of Birmingham Archives as there must be some record of how the street got its name.
 
A little more information about JR Turner, my great-grandfather. Born c. 1851 in Tiverton, Devon. Built whole swathes of houses in Edgbaston, Balsall Heath, Smethwick etc. Very well-known in Liberal political circles - Bonham-Carter family etc. I remember him being mentioned in documents held in the David Lloyd George museum in Criccieth. So a plausible candidate, I think.
 
BorninBrum said:
A little more information about JR Turner, my great-grandfather. Born c. 1851 in Tiverton, Devon. Built whole swathes of houses in Edgbaston, Balsall Heath, Smethwick etc. Very well-known in Liberal political circles - Bonham-Carter family etc. I remember him being mentioned in documents held in the David Lloyd George museum in Criccieth. So a plausible candidate, I think.
Click to expand...
Yes a very plausible candidate, Just need to find some contemporary proof.
 
Just looked on the map and notice an Eva Road runs off James Turner Street, do any of the above have a wife or daughter called Eva?
 
barnard said:
I am looking for proof not a repeat of Carl Chinn's doubtful assertion who makes it clear in his book he goes not actually know.
Click to expand...
Not sure this is the way to achieve assistance if I may say so. In fact I feel Jenny is owed an apology.
 
BernardR said:
Not sure this is the way to achieve assistance if I may say so. In fact I feel Jenny is owed an apology.
Click to expand...
If Jenny is owed an apology - I feely give one.

What I am saying is that Neil Tweedie's article in the Daily Telegraph is repeating Carl Chinn's opinion from his book
"The Streets of Brum - Part 3" without giving any evidence. (Which was covered in the second post on this thread)

Carl himself makes it clear he doesn't actually know which of the two options he gives is correct and the new information
that the road could be named after "JR Turner" the Birmingham House Builder active at the time of their construction
seems to have some weight.

P.S I know Carl and have been a guest on his Sunday Morning BBC WM radio show or should I now also apology to him as well. ?



.
 
I'm afraid Barnard that your suggestion that the road was named after J R Turner is very unlikely to be correct. The evidence for this, which you could have found for yourself rather than asking for information and being offhand with those who offer it, is that the street name first appears in directories in 1878 and 1879 as just "Turner St", a turning off Foundry Road. The street is not itself listed because either there were as then no buildings upon it , or, more likely, no commercial buildings or those other than domestic houses. By the time it is listed with occupants the name has been changed to James Turner St, presumably because it was realised that there was another turner St in Sparkbrook and people then were beginning to realise having two streets with the same name could cause problems and were thus altering names to eliminate this. It would be very unlikely that a street would be named after someone who was at the very most 27 , however well known a politician he later became, or how many houses he later built.
 
mikejee said:
I'm afraid Barnard that your suggestion that the road was named after J R Turner is very unlikely to be correct. The evidence for this, which you could have found for yourself rather than asking for information and being offhand with those who offer it, is that the street name first appears in directories in 1878 and 1879 as just "Turner St", a turning off Foundry Road. The street is not itself listed because either there were as then no buildings upon it , or, more likely, no commercial buildings or those other than domestic houses. By the time it is listed with occupants the name has been changed to James Turner St, presumably because it was realised that there was another turner St in Sparkbrook and people then were beginning to realise having two streets with the same name could cause problems and were thus altering names to eliminate this. It would be very unlikely that a street would be named after someone who was at the very most 27 , however well known a politician he later became, or how many houses he later built.
Click to expand...
First of all I am not suggesting that "J R Turner" was the name that the street was named after that was suggested
by the his great-grandson I don't know if that is correct or not but is it a real possibility.

As for me be been offhand - Well is all I was asking for was real information with evidence.

I do not consider an article in the Daily Telegraph as evidence.

You say that the "Turner Street" was later renamed "James Turner Street" and listed just when was that ?

Or do you claim the was in 1877 when J R Tuner (b. !850) was 27 prior to the 1878 and 1879 directories ?

You state that it is likely that the name (Turner Street) was changed to eliminate confusion so just why did they pick on "James" ?
 
As an addition to the source of the name I give the following extract from the Birmingham Post of 5.2.1868, of a council meeting the day before . Here there is mentioned an exchange of land with the executors of the late James Turner Esquire. to enable the improvement of Foundry Lane. So James Turner must have owned land in that area and negotiated a swap . James Turner St runs directly into Foundry Lane, so I think it likely that the street was named after him for reason of this and his willingness to swap with the council. This does not directly show which James Turner was involved, but I do think , as he had only recently been deceased, that the Baptist minister has been eliminated.

Birm_post__5_2_1868__land_of_James_turner.jpg
 
I would agree that The Daily Telegraph is scarcely evidence, though Jennyann was not suggesting that, merely pointing out the existence of the article. At one time, in my youth, i understand that The Times and Telegraph could be relied on as "instruments of record", though this is scarcely true today.
I apologise that I omitted the date on which the name changed to James Turner St and listings of buildings also began. This was in the 1880 directory. It would be reasonable to assume that data for the directories was collected in the year before the publication date, so the name Turner st would have been given at the latest 1877. My last post would explain what I believe is the likely use of Turner, and later James Turner, for the street. It was very common to name streets after those on whose land they were built. Vyse St goes slap bang through the middle of the area shown on Pigott Smith's 1828 map as belonging to Colonel Vyse.
 
Thanks

I would have thought had it been the Baptists Minster he would have been "James Turner Rev." not "James Turner Esq."

Still More digging required

Good Night
 
very interesting thread and comments and i tend to agree with you mike about the street being named after the land owner james turner as you say it was very common to do that...so i shall settle for that for now unless of course someone can find out differnt..

lyn
 
Last edited:
According to historian Bill Dargue the street was built between 1890-1891.
After looking at the census the thing that interested me was that all the residents in 1891 had very varied trades and came from many areas other than Birmingham( Chichester, Nottingham,Lancashire, Kidderminster etc)

I would go along with the street being called after the land owner.
 
Throwing a Two -pennyworth in,

H M Yacht "Osborne" 1870 ?, and / or "Osborne House " I o W , built 1845 - 1851, wen it wuz a posh Street eh !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top