Richard Dye
master brummie
Certainly moved around a lot! I wonder looking at Janice’s posting if there wasn’t some confusion between Bermuda and Barbados?
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BANNISTER, Mary and Martha
- Thread starter ChrisM
- Start date
pjmburns
master brummie
He said he did but I wondered that as well but who knows?
MWS
from Bham
That would make sense if she was the one to abandon the family but it was Solomon who left and it was Elizabeth who went to court for maintenance (which we assume she never got).
Also if she was worried abut someone following her why did she give the correct place of birth for herself and at least 2 of her sons did follow her to the NE.
This time I'd favour an honest mistake, apart from them saying they were in 1911 that was a lie, though not an uncommon one.
I'm still pinching myself to realise just how much information has been so generously provided to me about my grandmother's siblings - there were five daughters of Joseph and Elizabeth (Parkes): Ann/Annie, my mother Martha, Selina Elizabeth, Mary/May, and Louisa/Lou. This thread was all started by mention of Mary's migration via Birmingham to the USA in 1904. I already knew a bit about Martha but most of that concerning Mary and Selina Elizabeth is new to me and has come from here.
All my original information, now supplemented, comes from my late, elder brother, Graham, whose efforts in the 1990s were prompted by our father's 1974 notes. Graham had to do his work the old-fashioned way, travelling widely from his retirement home in East Devon between various County Record Offices in different parts of the country, especially Birmingham and Gloucester - and suffering both from the lack of searchability of most of the records and also from the lack of 1901,1911 and 1921 Censuses. The result, in 1997, was this series of booklets, treasured by the family.
And now all that hard work is being supplemented here by the application of modern technology and fresh minds. My intention is to create an addendum to parts of the "Our Black Country Roots" booklet, containing, summarising and trying to interpret the information you have recently provided (e.g. might Solomon Stokes have been a complete rogue or might there have been faults on both sides.....?) That will take a week or three but I'll eventually post it here, to add to the Forum records and in memory of my brother's pioneering work on our predominantly Birmingham family. (Entitled "Five Black Country Sisters" perhaps?!)
I know that my brother struggled with the Black Country story, and especially its earlier members – the Bannister name is prolific there, families were large and most of the generations showed very little imagination in choosing the names of their children! For example my grandmother Martha's father was one of at least eleven identified by my brother and, from my own amateur delving years ago, there might have been even more. Most of the males had biblical names starting with Joseph, John, Matthew, Mark and Luke and then, later, a second Luke, no doubt a replacement. (John Bannisters are everywhere!).
Of the five sisters, I/we now know much of the story of Martha, my grandmother (although there is one significant gap) and of Selina Elizabeth and Mary.
I know already, as well, sufficient about the youngest, Louisa/Lou Bannister. She married Charles E. Newnham in 1916 at the age of 28. Charles was a year younger and came from Stourbridge. He served with the 5th R.W.R. in Italy as a quartermaster sergeant on the Asiego Plateau. Later he was a buyer at Lewis's in Corporation Street. They had two children, the first, Eric, being lost on a torpedoed troopship during WW2. The other, Freddie, married and had children and grandchildren. My brother knew Auntie Lou and, presumably, the two boys. The family by then had moved to South Wales where they seemed to have lived out their lives. I think I may have images of Charles and his wife and will try to dig them out.
Which leaves Anne Bannister, the eldest (b.1871); all I know of her is that she married someone called James Priest. Nothing more. My interest in her is limited to finding out whether she was the only one who remained true to her Black Country geographical roots and didn't end up, like her sisters, in somewhere exotic like Ohio, Tyneside, South Wales or Summer Lane/Snow Hill/Chessett's Wood! And also to establishing whether there was any significance in her marriage to a James Priest and at one stage having her 16-year-old younger sister, Martha, in service with a local chain-maker with the same surname.
And finally, Martha Bannister herself, my grandmother. There is this gap in her life: between her living as a servant in the Priest household near to her home, for some time up to 1891 at least (my brother didn't find her in that Census) and later marrying my grandfather, Charles Myers, in 1897, in Birmingham, to produce Gwendolin (1898), Henry (my father, 1899) and Grace (1907). If you can sustain your interest, just for a little while longer, I should be really grateful for any thoughts on that; also, perhaps, anything which can be discovered after 1891 and later, confirmation of her suspected whereabouts (as Martha Myers) post-marriage in Birmingham in 1901, 1911 and 1921. After that, I promise, I'll stop banging on about this part of my family!
Chris
All my original information, now supplemented, comes from my late, elder brother, Graham, whose efforts in the 1990s were prompted by our father's 1974 notes. Graham had to do his work the old-fashioned way, travelling widely from his retirement home in East Devon between various County Record Offices in different parts of the country, especially Birmingham and Gloucester - and suffering both from the lack of searchability of most of the records and also from the lack of 1901,1911 and 1921 Censuses. The result, in 1997, was this series of booklets, treasured by the family.
And now all that hard work is being supplemented here by the application of modern technology and fresh minds. My intention is to create an addendum to parts of the "Our Black Country Roots" booklet, containing, summarising and trying to interpret the information you have recently provided (e.g. might Solomon Stokes have been a complete rogue or might there have been faults on both sides.....?) That will take a week or three but I'll eventually post it here, to add to the Forum records and in memory of my brother's pioneering work on our predominantly Birmingham family. (Entitled "Five Black Country Sisters" perhaps?!)
I know that my brother struggled with the Black Country story, and especially its earlier members – the Bannister name is prolific there, families were large and most of the generations showed very little imagination in choosing the names of their children! For example my grandmother Martha's father was one of at least eleven identified by my brother and, from my own amateur delving years ago, there might have been even more. Most of the males had biblical names starting with Joseph, John, Matthew, Mark and Luke and then, later, a second Luke, no doubt a replacement. (John Bannisters are everywhere!).
Of the five sisters, I/we now know much of the story of Martha, my grandmother (although there is one significant gap) and of Selina Elizabeth and Mary.
I know already, as well, sufficient about the youngest, Louisa/Lou Bannister. She married Charles E. Newnham in 1916 at the age of 28. Charles was a year younger and came from Stourbridge. He served with the 5th R.W.R. in Italy as a quartermaster sergeant on the Asiego Plateau. Later he was a buyer at Lewis's in Corporation Street. They had two children, the first, Eric, being lost on a torpedoed troopship during WW2. The other, Freddie, married and had children and grandchildren. My brother knew Auntie Lou and, presumably, the two boys. The family by then had moved to South Wales where they seemed to have lived out their lives. I think I may have images of Charles and his wife and will try to dig them out.
Which leaves Anne Bannister, the eldest (b.1871); all I know of her is that she married someone called James Priest. Nothing more. My interest in her is limited to finding out whether she was the only one who remained true to her Black Country geographical roots and didn't end up, like her sisters, in somewhere exotic like Ohio, Tyneside, South Wales or Summer Lane/Snow Hill/Chessett's Wood! And also to establishing whether there was any significance in her marriage to a James Priest and at one stage having her 16-year-old younger sister, Martha, in service with a local chain-maker with the same surname.
And finally, Martha Bannister herself, my grandmother. There is this gap in her life: between her living as a servant in the Priest household near to her home, for some time up to 1891 at least (my brother didn't find her in that Census) and later marrying my grandfather, Charles Myers, in 1897, in Birmingham, to produce Gwendolin (1898), Henry (my father, 1899) and Grace (1907). If you can sustain your interest, just for a little while longer, I should be really grateful for any thoughts on that; also, perhaps, anything which can be discovered after 1891 and later, confirmation of her suspected whereabouts (as Martha Myers) post-marriage in Birmingham in 1901, 1911 and 1921. After that, I promise, I'll stop banging on about this part of my family!
Chris
Well, here's to nosiness and Cheers, Janice!!
No, I have no originals other than what the two of you have kindly posted. My brother had access to Census records only up to 1891 and didn't reproduce them anywhere.
Chris
PS And thanks for 1901 and 1911. Haven't examined yet.
No, I have no originals other than what the two of you have kindly posted. My brother had access to Census records only up to 1891 and didn't reproduce them anywhere.
Chris
PS And thanks for 1901 and 1911. Haven't examined yet.
MWS
from Bham
Re : Annie Bannister.
Priest is also a common name in the Black Country and I can't see any connection between Annie's husband (James) & Martha's 1891 employer (Thomas). I went back to James' great grandfather and Thomas's grandfather. So might be just a coincidence though I wouldn't rule them being related prior to where I got to, as both those ancestors were born in Rowley Regis.
Annie appears to have stayed in the area, listed as living in Cradley on all the censuses after her marriage. Death likely reg. in Stourbridge (which includes Cradley) Sep 1937.
Annie & James probably had 9 children - 3 sons and 6 daughters. Two of the sons were twins but they died young as did one of the daughters.
Priest is also a common name in the Black Country and I can't see any connection between Annie's husband (James) & Martha's 1891 employer (Thomas). I went back to James' great grandfather and Thomas's grandfather. So might be just a coincidence though I wouldn't rule them being related prior to where I got to, as both those ancestors were born in Rowley Regis.
Annie appears to have stayed in the area, listed as living in Cradley on all the censuses after her marriage. Death likely reg. in Stourbridge (which includes Cradley) Sep 1937.
Annie & James probably had 9 children - 3 sons and 6 daughters. Two of the sons were twins but they died young as did one of the daughters.
MWS
from Bham
Turning away from the Bannister sisters for the moment.
In the opening post you mention that Joseph Bannister was born Dudley. However on the majority of censuses his birthplace is listed as Rowley Regis.
Then moving on to Joseph's father, I noted his residence at the time of his baptism is listed as the wonderfully named Bumble Hole. Wherever that may have been.
And did you know that Joseph snr was married prior to his marriage to Joseph jnr's mother and that his eldest 'daughter' may actually have been the illegitimate daughter of his first wife?
In the opening post you mention that Joseph Bannister was born Dudley. However on the majority of censuses his birthplace is listed as Rowley Regis.
Then moving on to Joseph's father, I noted his residence at the time of his baptism is listed as the wonderfully named Bumble Hole. Wherever that may have been.
And did you know that Joseph snr was married prior to his marriage to Joseph jnr's mother and that his eldest 'daughter' may actually have been the illegitimate daughter of his first wife?
Richard Dye
master brummie
.
Richard Dye
master brummie
MWS
from Bham
Just looking at the dates for Mary's arrival in America and her marriage and I didn't realise just how close they were.
According to the passenger list Mary arrived in New York on the 2nd Jun 1904 and then on the following day, the 3rd Jun 1904, she married George Walter Wilson in Cuyahoga County (Cleveland?), Ohio.
A distance of 462 miles!
According to the passenger list Mary arrived in New York on the 2nd Jun 1904 and then on the following day, the 3rd Jun 1904, she married George Walter Wilson in Cuyahoga County (Cleveland?), Ohio.
A distance of 462 miles!
Richard Dye
master brummie
Richard Dye
master brummie
https://www.google.com/search?q=nyc...UuNbgH4gfCBwUyLTUuN8gHWQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
12 to 15 hours, I think there is a day missing somewhere.
12 to 15 hours, I think there is a day missing somewhere.
MWS
from Bham
The only 2 reasons I can think of is Mary was pregnant though I can't see a few more days making a difference, or one of their families disapproved and they were worried that they might be stopped though neither was under age.
I suppose taking a romantic view they may have been very much in love and just wanted to be married as soon as possible.
I suppose taking a romantic view they may have been very much in love and just wanted to be married as soon as possible.
The problem with that is that, as far as we can tell or so it seems, Mary died childless. This doesn't mean of course that a child never existed or that she might have not gone to full term .........
Or perhaps the question of respectability? They were at the same address from the moment of arrival, or so it seems. But whatever the explanation there certainly seems to have been a remarkable sense of urgency!
Chris
Or perhaps the question of respectability? They were at the same address from the moment of arrival, or so it seems. But whatever the explanation there certainly seems to have been a remarkable sense of urgency!
Chris
Thank you for further invaluable contributions. Various points arising:
MARY: Mystery of her marriage date versus date of arrival New York.
A very good point! The juxtaposition of these two dates is so near inexplicable as to make them virtually an impossibility. But, presumably, the documents cannot lie. Could the "Teutonic" have come alongside in the very early hours of June 2nd (as Janice had just suggested)? And did Mary and George Walter have "priority disembarking" – which they clearly would have needed? And/or did George Walter have some prior arrangement with the William Brown J.P. who performed the civil ceremony and was willing to do the job, however late the hour? Or even backdate the document? (I assume that J.P. meant the same in the USA as it did in the UK, namely Justice of the Peace?) All very difficult to imagine and everything would have had to have come together perfectly to make it happen. But what other explanation could there be and perhaps it's just something we have to accept as an unexplained anomaly.
The other question, of course, is, if everything were planned in advance, why on earth would things have been arranged on so tight a schedule, bearing in mind all the possible variables involved in a trans Atlantic journey from Liverpool to a location relatively remote from New York?
ANNIE: The Priest family
Thanks, MWS, for establishing that there was no connection between the two Priests, Annie's husband and Martha's employer - or at least nothing in recent generations - and for the information on Annie's future life. And also to Janice for the 1891 return - fascinating indeed to see the detail of one street and how the neighbours possibly interacted and even overlapped! I notice that a near neighbour bore the (very common) surname of the mother of Martha and the other sisters – Parkes.
It sounds as though Annie was the one sister of five who remained true to her Black Country roots and lived thereabouts for the remainder of her life. Hers was another large family and I therefore have to assume that her descendants number amongst the many distant cousins I must have in the West Midlands. But now far too distant to investigate any further.
MARTHA
Thank you, Janice, for other information and especially my parents' marriage certificate. No, I had never seen that and wonderful it is to see for the first time an example of my grandfather's signature. (And the signature of my much-loved Auntie Grace, Dad's younger sister and then aged only about 14 - later Grace Summers and living for much of her married life in Kingstanding Road). Also the signatures of my very young parents – the flourish of my dad's, possibly the result of a King Edwards education and probably demonstrating more outward confidence than he felt at that significant moment; and also my mother's which barely changed up to her death at the age of 96. I always thought of the latter as a typical example of hand-writing taught in some Birmingham and nearby schools in the Edwardian period. I have seen it used elsewhere.
This is the only record of that event which survives – no family description of it, no other documentation except for some complimentary telegrams, no photographs. Apart from one other thing (which I have mentioned before) and that is a little japaned tin box
with, inside it, a carnation, turning to dust
and a pencilled note in my mother's distinctive hand-writing, probably written at around the time.
It's surprising to see Martha's name in the various directories as, presumably, running the antiques business - rather than her husband Charles. I imagine he must appear somewhere also. The information you have given me confirms my brother's statements about 38, Summer Lane and then 44, Snow Hill. (I wonder whether that is the location of Charles's father's similar business - Henry of the Gold Rush - and that Charles and Martha took it on, later moving to other nearby addresses in that part of Birmingham. But all that is another story)
BLACK COUNTRY LOCATIONS
I note from the 1891 Census page showing Annie's whereabouts that the heading states "Urban Sanitary District: Rowley Regis"; "Town, Village: Old Hill"; and "Parliamentary Borough: Dudley". Perhaps this explains some of the apparent variations of location in different descriptions of these events.......
Finally, going back to Martha. The one outstanding mystery of her relatively short life is how and when and why she moved from her own Old Hill area – where her parents and her employment were, at some time after 1891 but before her marriage in 1897 - landing up in Birmingham and meeting her future husband there (presumably). Probably impossible, now, to track her down but if any clues can possibly be unearthed it would be the icing on this, for me, quite wonderful cake!
Chris
MARY: Mystery of her marriage date versus date of arrival New York.
A very good point! The juxtaposition of these two dates is so near inexplicable as to make them virtually an impossibility. But, presumably, the documents cannot lie. Could the "Teutonic" have come alongside in the very early hours of June 2nd (as Janice had just suggested)? And did Mary and George Walter have "priority disembarking" – which they clearly would have needed? And/or did George Walter have some prior arrangement with the William Brown J.P. who performed the civil ceremony and was willing to do the job, however late the hour? Or even backdate the document? (I assume that J.P. meant the same in the USA as it did in the UK, namely Justice of the Peace?) All very difficult to imagine and everything would have had to have come together perfectly to make it happen. But what other explanation could there be and perhaps it's just something we have to accept as an unexplained anomaly.
The other question, of course, is, if everything were planned in advance, why on earth would things have been arranged on so tight a schedule, bearing in mind all the possible variables involved in a trans Atlantic journey from Liverpool to a location relatively remote from New York?
ANNIE: The Priest family
Thanks, MWS, for establishing that there was no connection between the two Priests, Annie's husband and Martha's employer - or at least nothing in recent generations - and for the information on Annie's future life. And also to Janice for the 1891 return - fascinating indeed to see the detail of one street and how the neighbours possibly interacted and even overlapped! I notice that a near neighbour bore the (very common) surname of the mother of Martha and the other sisters – Parkes.
It sounds as though Annie was the one sister of five who remained true to her Black Country roots and lived thereabouts for the remainder of her life. Hers was another large family and I therefore have to assume that her descendants number amongst the many distant cousins I must have in the West Midlands. But now far too distant to investigate any further.
MARTHA
Thank you, Janice, for other information and especially my parents' marriage certificate. No, I had never seen that and wonderful it is to see for the first time an example of my grandfather's signature. (And the signature of my much-loved Auntie Grace, Dad's younger sister and then aged only about 14 - later Grace Summers and living for much of her married life in Kingstanding Road). Also the signatures of my very young parents – the flourish of my dad's, possibly the result of a King Edwards education and probably demonstrating more outward confidence than he felt at that significant moment; and also my mother's which barely changed up to her death at the age of 96. I always thought of the latter as a typical example of hand-writing taught in some Birmingham and nearby schools in the Edwardian period. I have seen it used elsewhere.
This is the only record of that event which survives – no family description of it, no other documentation except for some complimentary telegrams, no photographs. Apart from one other thing (which I have mentioned before) and that is a little japaned tin box
with, inside it, a carnation, turning to dust
and a pencilled note in my mother's distinctive hand-writing, probably written at around the time.
It's surprising to see Martha's name in the various directories as, presumably, running the antiques business - rather than her husband Charles. I imagine he must appear somewhere also. The information you have given me confirms my brother's statements about 38, Summer Lane and then 44, Snow Hill. (I wonder whether that is the location of Charles's father's similar business - Henry of the Gold Rush - and that Charles and Martha took it on, later moving to other nearby addresses in that part of Birmingham. But all that is another story)
BLACK COUNTRY LOCATIONS
I note from the 1891 Census page showing Annie's whereabouts that the heading states "Urban Sanitary District: Rowley Regis"; "Town, Village: Old Hill"; and "Parliamentary Borough: Dudley". Perhaps this explains some of the apparent variations of location in different descriptions of these events.......
Finally, going back to Martha. The one outstanding mystery of her relatively short life is how and when and why she moved from her own Old Hill area – where her parents and her employment were, at some time after 1891 but before her marriage in 1897 - landing up in Birmingham and meeting her future husband there (presumably). Probably impossible, now, to track her down but if any clues can possibly be unearthed it would be the icing on this, for me, quite wonderful cake!
Chris
