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Memorial found in a skip

W

wam

master brummie
Mystery plaque.jpg
This memorial was found by someone in a skip and has been passed to other people who are trying to find out where it came from so that it can be relocated. Although most of the people listed come from Balsall Heath there are some on there from Bordesley and Kings Heath. From the picture itself, the plaque seems to have been made after the second world war (the piece at the bottom reads 1939-1945 Mason). The assumption has been that it came from a local church. If anyone recognises it or can tell where it might have come from please reply here or send me a message. We do have more details about the people listed.
 
not another one wam:(...as you may know 4 years ago this forum had a huge success in getting a marble plaque re dedicated at the NMA...this was for fallen postal workers of erdington this was covered by both the press and tv media..link below to that thread..

i think it may well have once been in a church and could have been dedicated to the fallen congregation of that church...only a guess though

detective work is needed...ie when was it found? and exactly where??...if you know when and where try and find out which if any churches were demolished in the area at that time..if as you suspect it came from a church i think the best you can hope for is that maybe a more modern church was rebuilt in which case the plaque could be given back and re dedicated..(although it should not have been skipped in the first place)

it could be a long job but i wish you and everyone involved good luck and please keep us updated on any progress..this is a subject close to my heart...these men gave their lives for this country and to end up in a skip and treated like rubbish is absolutely disgraceful...where is the respect...GOD BLESS THEM ALL

lyn

https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/these-heroes-were-nearly-forgotton.43365/
 
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If you have a few more details of men, it may be that they are mentioned in reports. And if two can be found it might show some connection?
 
Hi Pedro thats a good idea the thing as well what is the metal made of is it broze or what may be it got mixed in the rubbiAlan Astonian;;;sh by mistake or did the people steal it thinking it valuable metal and they cannot get rid at scrap yards because of the names on it and the scrap dealer would of thought suspion but yes pedro good idea what you suggested best wishes Alan Astonian;;;
 
Astoness said:
not another one wam:(...as you may know 4 years ago this forum had a huge success in getting a marble plaque re dedicated at the NMA...this was for fallen postal workers of erdington this was covered by both the press and tv media..link below to that thread..

i think it may well have once been in a church and could have been dedicated to the fallen congregation of that church...only a guess though

detective work is needed...ie when was it found? and exactly where??...if you know when and where try and find out which if any churches were demolished in the area at that time..if as you suspect it came from a church i think the best you can hope for is that maybe a more modern church was rebuilt in which case the plaque could be given back and re dedicated..(although it should not have been skipped in the first place)

it could be a long job but i wish you and everyone involved good luck and please keep us updated on any progress..this is a subject close to my heart...these men gave their lives for this country and to end up in a skip and treated like rubbish is absolutely disgraceful...where is the respect...GOD BLESS THEM ALL

lyn

https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/these-heroes-were-nearly-forgotton.43365/
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That's why I chose to post this here. I suppose if it has worked once, it can work again.
 
I think Lyn is right - we need to know where and when it was found as this might offer a few clues to what place we are looking for. It could also have come from a school - several of the older schools have/had plaques commemorating former pupils who had been killed. Or even a factory or similar.
 
I have the rest of the detail on a spreadsheet. As such it is difficult to post it here. Single columns are easy enough. This is a list of the addresses I've been given.
111 Brunswick Road, Sparkbrook
42 Howard St. Smethwick
68 St. Paul's Road Balsall Heath
124 Anderton Park Road Moseley
68 Oxford Road, Moseley
53 Malvern St Balsall Heath
67 Sherbourne Road Balsall Heath
Sparkhill
69 Durham Road Sparkhill
90 Alcester Road Moseley
54 Park Road Aston
78 Clifton Road Balsall Heath
78 Clifton Road Balsall Heath
80 Leamington Road Balsall Heath
73 Edward St Balsall Heath
Eastgate, Forest Road, Mosley
100 Cox St. West, Balsall Heath
83 Runcorn Road Balsall Heath
12 Queenswood Road Moseley
88 Westfield Road Kings Heath
68 Newport Road Balsall Heath
233 Grange Road Kings Heath
263 Mary St Bordesley Green
102 Lordswood Road
48 Runcorn Road Balsall Heath
81 Reddings Road Moseley
264 Balsall Heath Road
264 Balsall Heath Road
264 Balsall Heath Road
52 Birchwood Road Balsall Heath
16 Homer St. Balsall Heath
Herbert House, Moseley
 
Interesting - do you know where and how long ago the plaque was found? I assume the 3 from Balsall Heath Road are the 3 named Stone. How sad.
 
I have also got lists of rank and regiment. The list does not include religion and probably wouldn't have detail if it did. I'd initially thought this might be churches. Somebody's first suggestion was St Barnabas. The next thing there would be to find out what has closed recently enough or been cleared out in time to wind up in a skip. It's difficult to say when it first showed up, this is what I have been told "The provenance of the plaque is a dead end - it was brought into another church by someone who wasn't a member of the congregation, with no details other than it was found in a skip."
I have considered other places than churches. I know it wasn't the Tindal St Old Boys because I've found a picture of their memorial. Given that it was much longer than this, I suspect this comes from a smaller group or, because of the time delay, a lot of possible names were missed.
There is still the question of what happened to the other plaque. If this one was made post 1945, surely there would be another one. Of late, I can think of 3 places locally that might have had plaques and have either been demolished or had a refurbishment of some sort. As I said, it isn't the old boys club but there's still the Methodist church on Moseley Road and St Lukes on the Bristol Road. Supposing it's a small group, it could well be another place that I haven't thought of.
 
the plaque looks to me to be original most likely commissioned round about 1920 as most ww1 memorials were and masons name was added after WW2....this is only my opinion

lyn
 
just a thought ..has anyone had the idea of finding all of these men on the 1911 census..dont know how their addresses were found but the 1911 would give you their occupations and in some cases the name of where they worked..i would suggest if they are all of the same or similar occupation then its a factory/place of work you are looking for

lyn
 
I will agree with you on at least one point there, Lyn, I think it was from business premises somewhere within that area that could be reached from any of the addresses by a walk or a bus ride. And possibly a largish company in its time too.

Maurice
 
yes maurice i am now swaying away from the men being church parishioners and that is because one man is from smethwick and the other aston...also given the loss of lives i would agree it could have been a large company..again only guess work...unless already done i think my suggestion on post 12 may help

lyn
 
I have limited time this morning, Lyn, but have been through four of the addresses so far and nothing in common - jewellery manufacturer, brassfounder, even a musician, but they don't look like regular churchgoers to me!

Maurice
 
Lyn / Wam,

I'm having second thoughts. The wording "To the glory of God ...." suggests a church. And, of course, someone could have sat on this for many years and only recently thrown it in a skip. Certainly, the occupations of the people I've looked at so far have been very diverse, which doesn't seem to suggest business premises.

Maurice
 
I tried looking some up on 1911 census and quite a few were school age in 1911 - sad as they must have been called up at just 18 and killed soon after.
 
Another thought based on the wording - Salvation Army? That is sufficiently diverse and my searches so far included a musician, but I have to go out now. Later.....

Maurice
 
There seem to have been 2 C of E churches in Balsall Heath - St Thomas in the Moors which was demolished in 1970 and St Paul's (a new church was built in 1979) and the original was demolished.
 
Could they have belonged to some sort of club? It does say "our brave men" Just a thought.
 
I'm checking local newspaper reports - first Leonard Glen ALLDER, a tram conductor who worked at Birmingham Gun Factory. I will post more as I find them.

Maurice.
 
Astoness said:
yes maurice i am now swaying away from the men being church parishioners and that is because one man is from smethwick and the other aston...also given the loss of lives i would agree it could have been a large company..again only guess work...unless already done i think my suggestion on post 12 may help

lyn
Click to expand...
Here we go again!:)

I see mention has been made of the Methodist Church on Moseley Road. Local knowledge is this is/was the home of the 10th Birmingham Boys' Brigade.

The two people from Smethwick and Aston. They could have been Officers? Do they have age differences relative to the others?

What was originally on the site before the Methodist Church was built? Did it replace another building?

When was the 10th Birmingham BB formed? Where were their original premises?
 
No occupation in common so far. Here's another - John Edward HARDMAN - last employed by Mr Hopkins of Long Street, Sparkbrook - it doesn't say in what capacity.

A lot of them I am not finding on CWGC - are there civilians amongst them?

Maurice
 
I wondered if the extra one - Mason 1939 - 1945 was the only one to die in action in WW2 so they just added it at the bottom? However, it does seem a little strange that one one person connected with the place died in WW2.
 
Another, but I have been unable to find his occupation before he joined up - Sydney Currie BETTS. He had two brothers also serving.

Maurice
 
sospiri said:
No occupation in common so far. Here's another - John Edward HARDMAN - last employed by Mr Hopkins of Long Street, Sparkbrook - it doesn't say in what capacity.

A lot of them I am not finding on CWGC - are there civilians amongst them?

Maurice
Click to expand...

that also crossed my mind maurice
 
just a thought maurice these men died during ww1 so they would not have been cilivians that died so they must have died in battle...i think

lyn
 
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i cant make out the initials of mason?? just looked at my list of civilian dead ww2 and there are 2 masons..james henry aged 49 and eric leslie aged 37 but that does not mean to say either of them are the one on the plaque
 
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