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William and Catherine Veness, 8 Back of 68 Allcock Street

H

Hobbsy

proper brummie kid
I am looking for any information that anyone might have on William and Catherine Veness who lived at 8 Back of 68 Allcock Street Deritend from at least 1913 up until 1958. They had four children - Annie born in 1906, Florence born in 1909, William born in either 1910 or 1911, and John born in 1913.

Catherine's maiden name was Joyce, and her father is listed as Edward Joyce. William is actually called John William on his birth certificate, and his father is listed as William John Veness. Catherine and John married on 1st December 1903.

Of the daughter's, Florence's surname was Pearson by 1941, and she apparently had a daughter known as Betty or Bessie. In 1941 she lived at 80 Langstone Road. In 1954, William (the one born in 1910 or 1911!!) lived at 83 Chartist Road.

Any help would be appreciated. Best Wishes.
 
Hi Hobbsy & Welcome

Noted your Quest, could you put the Ages of the married in 1903 & d o b John William Veness
Can then do a better scan around for you,

Vaness seems to be London/Sussex/Kent origins with none showing local B,ham/Warks/Worcs on 1901
1908 Kellys directories have none either
Joyce surname more prominent & promising to this locality,, Provide as much info, Dates etc &
Give it a whirl for you tomorrow,, Ok & cheers  O0 John Y
 
1881 census
Dwelling: 7 Ct 2 Ho Buck St
Census Place: Birmingham, Warwick, England
Source: FHL Film 1341714 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2987 Folio 85 Page 57
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John VENESS M 32 M Birmghm
Rel: Head
Occ: Hawker
Amelia VENESS M 30 F Birmghm
Rel: Wife
Amelia VENESS 9 F Birmghm
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Agness VENESS 7 F Birmghm
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Algeon VENESS 4 M Birmghm
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Mary J. VENESS 2 F Birmghm
Rel: Daur
Elizabeth VENESS 8 m F Birmghm
Rel: Daur

John Veness married Amelia Howell 1873 Birmingham
The only John Veness i can find born anywhere close is John Bacon Veness b. Worcs 1848
William john Veness born 1882 Birmingham(21 at marriage)?
 
Dear John and Alberta

First of all, thank you very very much for your help. I'm new to the site so I wasn't expecting such an instant response, and I really appreciate your help.

On the December 1903 marriage certificate, John William Veness was aged 21 and Catherine Joyce was aged 20. I am going to double check the birth date of John William Veness because the current one I have for him is incorrect - he seems to have been known as William rather than John, hence I originally looked for dates of birth for John Veness! I will come back to you later tonight on this. I have searched the '1837 Online' website for details on Catherine Veness's birth, and have narrowed it down to six - but none of them in the Birmingham area!

As you say the Veness is prominent in the South East region, but the family apparently have no recent connection to the South East!

I will give you the information I have so far if that's OK. John Veness was born on 13th July 1913. John William Veness died on 3rd March 1941. John Veness died on 18th September 1954. Catherine Veness died on 24th January 1958.

Incidentally, the 1881 census information is fantastic because on the 1903 wedding certificate of John William Veness and Catherine is one Algernon Veness as a signatory - this looks very promising.

Very best wishes - Hobbsy.
 
Just to add a little bit more to my previous message. I've just had a look through '1837 Online', and it seems almost certain that John William Veness was born in the July/August/September 1882. I can now order his birth certificate and hopefully this will confim that his father is John Veness, as posted by Alberta.
 
Hi Hobbsy & my compliments to Our lovely Alberta, (Nice work Gal :-* )

Hobbsy may i suggest you check your "Lines" through the 1891 census before buying certificate(s)
Can be expensive if even slightly off track,, Two main ones (Married 1903) should be home with both
sets of parents,, their ages 10,ish + or - 5 years Ok...
If you haven,t access,, no prob,, will have a scan later for you or someone will if you need Ok
Glad we BARmen & BRA wimmin :2funny: can help you,,Cheers John Y
 
Thanks John. I took your advice and I've had a look online at the 1891 and 1901 Censuses - but I can't find any mention of anyone in this line of the Veness family! Alas, the marriage certificate from 1903 only gives the address for John William Veness and Catherine Joyce as 'St Gabriel's Parish, Birmingham". All the best, Jeff.
 
Now this reply will surprise you!

1891 census, Bishop Ryder parish, Birmingham ref RG12/ 2385. No 64 ????? (I have mislaid my note of the full address) but next address is 13 Court No 1 House

John SMITH Head M 43 Hawker b Worcester
Amelia SMITH Wife M 41 all others b Birmingham
Amelia WILLIAMS Daug M 20 Button worker
John WILLIAMS Son in law M 29 Gas fitter
Agnes SMITH Daug U 18 Brass worker
Algernon SMITH Son U 14 Saddlers errand boy
Jane SMITH Daug U 12 Scholar
Elizabeth SMITH Daug U 10 "
John SMITH Son U 8 "
William SMITH Son U 7 "
Ada SMITH Son !!! U 4 "
George SMITH Son U 2
Emily SMITH Daug U 7 mths
Elizabeth WILLIAMS
Grand - daug U 5 mths

The younger Amelia is my wife's great-grandmother and John Williams was her first husband. Why the name SMITh was used I do not know but the name sequence and ages is identical to the Veness family and I have no doubt it is the same family.
Interestingly the head, John is shown as born in Worcester and that matches the IGI entry for John Bacon Veness (Confirmed on GRO Index). I have requested his birth certificate and it was due to be despatched from ONS on Friday last.
It was only by searching for Amelia Williams that I found this entry. If anyone can check it out and advise the street I would be grateful.

Hopefully I will get the birth cert early next week and I'll then get back here and report.
 
Thank you very much for that Herefordlad! That one really was a surprise and maybe answers why this part of the Veness family disappear from view after the 1881 Census! I will have a look around to see if I can find out any more on the family. Once again, I can't thank you enough because I'd drawn a blank on any census information on this family!! Very best wishes. Jeff.
 
Herefordlad,, absolutely brilliant work,, well done for our friend Hobbsy :)

The address is 64 Sheep Street,, Municipal of St Marys, Eccles of Bishop Ryder Folio 100 page 45, Shedule 280
this is to complement (& Compliment) your excellent accuracy on your prior posting

Incidently Hobbsy,, on prior page (Same RG12 etc) Shedule 276, No 5 court Sheep Street
There is as Lodgers in the House of Edward Brookes (Head) a Mary A VANES ? widow age 72, charwoman
born B,ham & her son a Arthur J a cabinet maker age 28,, maybe a Vaness mis-transcript?
Take a peek anyway Ok,, cheers Guys John Y O0
 
Well spotted herefordlad
John Williams married Amelia Veness December 1889 Birmingham ref. 6d 173

It has been known that when the enumerators could not spell the name they put down anything as Smith would be good enough,as most of the entrants could not read or write they were not to know.

My 1881 Costello relatives became Barton? in 1891 and back to Costello in 1901
 
:angel: Just to back this up I also have a family of Dugmore's who on the 1901 census became Andrews and then back to Dugmore.

Also found this on
https://www.ancestry.com
message board, could be of help...
VENAS / VINESS - C19th English Midlands
.‚.. Author: Mark Grace.‚.. Date: 8 Feb 2002 5:13 AM GMT.‚..
.‚.. Classification: Query
.‚.. .‚..
Seeking ancestry of Elizabeth - But who is she?
Here's the contradictory evidence:

1. She married as VINESS to Daniel BICKNELL/BICKNALL on 28.9.1868 at St Peter, Dale End, Birmingham. She gave the same phonetic maiden name at the birth registration for her daughter Selina in 1873, but it was recorded as VENAS.

2. On 1881 census - Elizabeth noted as widowed daughter of the SMITH family at 35 Aston Road, Aston. John SMITH (Head, Builder's Labourer, 60) of Scot Wiliby (sic; Silk Willoughby, LIN) & wife Ann S., (53) of Birmingham.

Conclusions:
She was born around 1849/50 (age on marriage & 1881 census)
She may have been born in Wolverhampton, STS (1881 census)
Her maiden name could be VINESS (or variant) & perhaps the illegitimate daughter of Ann.
Click to expand...
 
Just to say a very big thank you to all of you for the information! I will follow this up, and will come back to you soon with anything else I find. All the best. Hobbsy.
 
Fascinating story. Thanks for all the information being added.
Earlier address for John and Amelia - Agnes was born (from birth certificate) on 13th June 1873 and they were living at 4 Gem Street which parallels Sheep Street. John was listed as a puddler - was this an error for pedlar or hawker?
Hope to have his (possible) birth certificate next week.

Thanks to everyone.
 
Hi herefordlad O0 The listing of John as a "Puddler" is probably quite correct

Puddling was a method of "Mixing=stirring" Molten metals, Fierce, Hot & skilled trade
Iron/Carbon/Steel etc Brass/Bronze foundry style working.. (Iron Puddlers) & associated trades
Cheers & Good luck with your researching re above,, John Y
 
herefordlad re amelia veness [smith] you say john williams was her first husband does that imploy amelia married again ? do you know of any children by john williams thanks robert
 
Hi Robert

Yes she married again to James Rowles although I can't trace the marriage it would have been around 1900. My connection is to this second marriage.
If you look at the 1891 census above (where the name is Smith) you will see Elizabeth Williams age 5 mths - she would be from the first marriage and that is the only reference to her that I know of.
 
hi herefordlad thanks for your info. james and amelia rowles are my grandparents i have a copy of a birth certificate for bertie rowles the youngest son the address for 1915 is299 howsen cottages cotheridge worcestershire thanks robert
 
Hi all - new to this group but have been in contact with Hobbsy through GenesReunited

Hereford lad said:
Earlier address for John and Amelia - Agnes was born (from birth certificate) on 13th June 1873 and they were living at 4 Gem Street which parallels Sheep Street.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that - I'm interested in Agnes and her birth and note that John Veness and Amelia Howell had only just got married (3rd qtr 1873, B'ham Vol 6d p46).

I have Agnes married to William Holden (4th Qtr 1892, B'Ham 6d 114) - this being his second marriage since his first wife died 1891 leaving 4 children aged 1 to 11 - William Holden b1882 being the eldest.
Agnes and William went on to have Agnes b1895, Elizabeth b1899 and Gertrude b1901.
The William Holden by the first marriage went on to marry Leah Kenning and their daughter Ellen Florence Holden b1908 married Edward George Gough in 1927.
GOUGH is my line.

I have looked in the 1901 census for all combinations of the <Vaness first names> and <born dates> for <any surname> and the family are nowhere to be found. As a test, a similar search finds them in 1891 census as we know under Smith.

Regards all

RetiredBri
 
Hi Robert and RetiredBri

We're building up quite a family here!

Interested in Bertie's birth certificate, I knew they lived at Cotheridge as Bertie's sister Amelia used to talk of it, I believe they lived in one of two lodges to Cotheridge Court. They were little round buildings and were nicknamed "The Inkpots", unfortunately I have seen no pictures of them but I imagine there must be some. The cottages were knocked down years ago.
At that time I think James Rowles was farm bailiff or something like that but it should be on the certificate. Any chance of a copy?
Please could you let me have full details of your connection either on here or direct at <lj*no spam*[email protected]> remove the no spam bit

I received the birth certificate for John Bacon Veness who I assume is the John Veness (Smith) in the 1891 census as he is the only John Veness showing in Worcester at that time. He was born 11th June 1848 at Wyld's Lane, Worcester. His mother was Elizabeth Veness and there is no father given. I intend to check the original register at Worcester Record Office soon to see if there is any more information there.

To RetiredBri - I have (I think) a copy of Agnes' birth certificate, would you like a copy?
 
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