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Passages, Alleyways Gulletts and Snickets of Old Brum
- Thread starter Dennis Williams
- Start date
paul stacey
master brummie
Sounds like something out of "Harry Potter".!!!
paul
paul
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Thanks Jayell, truly fascianting. Hope you don't mind but I searched and found your original Thread from 2007. Here are some of the respones, including your own, of course. Pity the picture ref from mikejees has expired...wonder if anyone can add anything to this fascinating mix? Sounds like my sort of place...
From Henrietta Lockhart, Curator of History, Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery
I have recently come across some references to the Grand Sultan Divan. We have a trade card in the museum collection, and our collection notes say that Turkish people were involved in running it. It seems to have been a house of "ill-repute" - it's mentioned in a periodical called Brum which was published during 1869, and also illustrated there (Birmingham University Library apparently hold this periodical). Prostitutes used to congregate there. The YMCA took it over in the 1880s (this is referred to in a document held by Birmingham University Special Collections) and referred to the fact that they had converted a den of iniquity into a place of moral improvement!! I would be most interested to know anything you can tell me about your relative who worked there!
You wrote: I did find the following online from Showells Directory regarding the Sultan Divan and the YMCA:
...when the notorious "Sultan Divan" was closed in Needless Alley, it was taken for the purposes of this institution, the most appropriate change of tenancy that could possibly be desired, the attractions of the glaring dancing-rooms and low-lived racket giving place to comfortable reading-rooms, a cosy library, and healthy amusements. Young men of all creeds may here find a welcome, and strangers to the town will meet friends to guide them in choice of companions, or in securing comfortable homes....
Birmingham Museums & Art Gallery have just sent me a copy of some pages from the Barber Institute's catalogue. They refer to a weekly newspaper called "Brum" which appeared for a few months in 1869.
"...Brum was very much concerned with the often blatant contrast between public facade and public reality, hypocrisy in its various guises. The paper instituted a series of full-page prints called Local Institutions to draw attention in the most pointed way possible to the current iniquities, the 'Spots on the Sun' as it called them......
The Grand Sultan Divan in Needless Alley ... has the appearance of a neglected teetotal lecture room, and has no doubt been noted by hundreds of well-meaning old fogeys without a thought to its real character.
In these apartments are congregated nightly all the women of ill-fame in Birmingham, whose faces are sufficiently well preserved to stand the light. Those who have sunk below this standard, as they all do sooner or later, generally find it better to remain outside...."
From Henrietta Lockhart, Curator of History, Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery
I have recently come across some references to the Grand Sultan Divan. We have a trade card in the museum collection, and our collection notes say that Turkish people were involved in running it. It seems to have been a house of "ill-repute" - it's mentioned in a periodical called Brum which was published during 1869, and also illustrated there (Birmingham University Library apparently hold this periodical). Prostitutes used to congregate there. The YMCA took it over in the 1880s (this is referred to in a document held by Birmingham University Special Collections) and referred to the fact that they had converted a den of iniquity into a place of moral improvement!! I would be most interested to know anything you can tell me about your relative who worked there!
You wrote: I did find the following online from Showells Directory regarding the Sultan Divan and the YMCA:
...when the notorious "Sultan Divan" was closed in Needless Alley, it was taken for the purposes of this institution, the most appropriate change of tenancy that could possibly be desired, the attractions of the glaring dancing-rooms and low-lived racket giving place to comfortable reading-rooms, a cosy library, and healthy amusements. Young men of all creeds may here find a welcome, and strangers to the town will meet friends to guide them in choice of companions, or in securing comfortable homes....
Birmingham Museums & Art Gallery have just sent me a copy of some pages from the Barber Institute's catalogue. They refer to a weekly newspaper called "Brum" which appeared for a few months in 1869.
"...Brum was very much concerned with the often blatant contrast between public facade and public reality, hypocrisy in its various guises. The paper instituted a series of full-page prints called Local Institutions to draw attention in the most pointed way possible to the current iniquities, the 'Spots on the Sun' as it called them......
The Grand Sultan Divan in Needless Alley ... has the appearance of a neglected teetotal lecture room, and has no doubt been noted by hundreds of well-meaning old fogeys without a thought to its real character.
In these apartments are congregated nightly all the women of ill-fame in Birmingham, whose faces are sufficiently well preserved to stand the light. Those who have sunk below this standard, as they all do sooner or later, generally find it better to remain outside...."
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Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Doh! Of course Moss. Was an M&B mild or Ansell's Bitter man, so forgot them lesser spotted Brews...
Jayell
master brummie
Thank you Mike for the advertisement! Always good to add a little more information to what I have.
Thanks also Dennis for bringing the information from the Sultan Divan thread onto here. I do have a little more information on this so-called 'house of ill repute' and will try and find it for you.
Thanks also Dennis for bringing the information from the Sultan Divan thread onto here. I do have a little more information on this so-called 'house of ill repute' and will try and find it for you.
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Ragga...where is that!
W
Wendy
Guest
Please post it Judy I find it fascinating we don't hear much of the murkier side of Brum.
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
You naughty girl Wendy! Here's a piece by Chris Upton that my old friend Aidan posted many moons ago...
https://www.birminghampost.net/comm...am-alley-with-a-shady-history-65233-23829607/
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
And if it's scandal you want Wendy...pop round the corner to the Trocadero in Temple Street...in another life it also got quite famous..
The Trocadero, 17 Temple Street, Birmingham, England, currently a pub, is a dazzling demonstration of the use of coloured glazed tile and terracotta in the post-Victorian era of architecture.
Formerly the Fire Engine House for the Norwich Union Insurance Company (1846, Edge & Avery), it was altered in 1883 to make the Bodega wine bar. It was given the current colourful glazed front in 1902 when it became the Trocadero. It is Grade II listed...
The Trocadero, 17 Temple Street, Birmingham, England, currently a pub, is a dazzling demonstration of the use of coloured glazed tile and terracotta in the post-Victorian era of architecture.
Formerly the Fire Engine House for the Norwich Union Insurance Company (1846, Edge & Avery), it was altered in 1883 to make the Bodega wine bar. It was given the current colourful glazed front in 1902 when it became the Trocadero. It is Grade II listed...
Isn
Isn't it the rear entrance to the Windsor pub?
W
Wendy
Guest
Thank you Dennis I have never been to the Trocadero but now would like to see it. I belive it was frequented by the gay comunity in the 60's.
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Doh again! I think you are spot on Bilbo...judging from this map of 1889...and there doesn't seem to be any signs of a boozer there in subsequent maps I have....interesting that the Troc was in it's more infamous identity (see above) as the Bodega then...
Attachment 84319 Ive walked down here a few times have you ??
Dennis , cant recall the name but someone on here will .
the alley runs from Union st by Henrys past the post office
and where the blind begger stood and finishes in New St
as you can see on the photograph.
ragga .........
Dennis , cant recall the name but someone on here will .
the alley runs from Union st by Henrys past the post office
and where the blind begger stood and finishes in New St
as you can see on the photograph.
ragga .........
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Ah...Union Passage, New St end....
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
And looking at that old 1889 Map, in Temple Street you can see the Acorn - one of Brum's most famous Inns. Here's a few words from Joe McKenna and Elizier Edwards...
The Acorn at 32 Temple Street dated from 1750. Its first known owner was a Mrs Rawley, a widow, who with her death in 1766 was succeeded by Charles Friend. John Roderick, an auctioneer, bought the house in 1824. He purchased the premises next door too, and the Acorn Inn became the Acorn Hotel. Roderick kept the house until 1832, when his brother-in-law, Thomas Chambers, a former draper in Bull Street, took over. Later licensees include William Evans, a former footman to Birmingham's first MP, Thomas Atwood. Thomas Prideaux followed him as licensee in I851. He opened the Acorn Vaults in the rear of the hotel, facing onto Needless Alley. These same Vaults were updated from the drawings of architect William Hale from plans prepared by him on 8 August 1878. James Clements, another auctioneer, took over the hotel from Prideaux, expanding into 33 and 331/2 Temple Street. Local historian Eliezer Edwards, in his Old Taverns of Birmingham, wrote of the Acorn:
ONE of the most pleasant of the old taverns, the Acorn,
in Temple Street, now in the centre of the busy
life of modern Birmingham was, in its early days,
in the 'very outskirts of the town. The east side of
that street WaS occupied by a continuous line of houses, having
gardens s running back to Needless Alley. On the opposite side,
near the bottom, there was built in Queen Anne's time, a stately
Mansion, which forty or fifty years ago was the residence of the
great Whig politician "Joe” Parkes. Part of it remains, and is
used as offices. From this point this street for SOme distance
was open to the fields, but there were a few houses near the top,
and at the corner, on the site of the Clarendon, there was
another old tavern, the Globe.
Between the roadway and the footpath, on the West
side of Temple Street, was a row of trees from New Street to the top. From the hospitable
doorway of the Acorn the eye looked across the fields, which
then existed where Waterloo Street now stands, to the Coney
Grove, which gave its name to Congreve Street, and whose site,
where the the rabbits hid in the thickets, is now occupied by the
Council House. Beyond, a little to the left, was a glorious landscape
rising gradually until it culminated in the tree-covered
heights of Warley and the Lightwoods.
From the tree tops opposite was heard the Song of the throstle and the blackbird,
whilst through the open windows of the Acorn came the sweet
breath of the bean blossoms from the fields on Bennett's Hill,
or the fragrant odour of newly made hay, borne by the westerly from
the pleasant park of the Colmores, of the New
Hall. No country Inn of modern days looks upon a more
luxuriant landscape than then lay before the old house known
as the Acorn, in Temple Stret "In alcoves and harbours of the garden at it’s back sat,
in summer evenings, the quiet and steady going lorimers and buckle makers, who, as they
solemny smoked their long pipes, talked over business with London or Bristol merchants,
or arranged a barter with a chapman from Hull or Liverpool.
Before the floor was lowered, the height of the smoking room was only seven or eight feet.
It was lighted at night by candles, one of which, with its necessary accompaniment, a pair of
snuffers, stood on each table. The candlesticks in which they were placed were nearly two feet high.
When the tall candles which were used were first lighted the flames reached to within a short
distance of the ceiling.
When there were a dozen or twenty smokers at work the atmosphere of the low room was
so dense that it was not easy to distinguish the features of those who sat far away.
In Mr Roderick's time he always sat in the centre chair at the top of the room, the table
which stood there being distinguished by having two candles. At eight o'clock of every evening,
except Saturday and Sunday, silence was called, and he proceeded to read aloud the
most interesting items of the London evening papers of the previous day.
Saturday was excepted because on that evening there was what was then called a
free-and-easy.
The Acorn at 32 Temple Street dated from 1750. Its first known owner was a Mrs Rawley, a widow, who with her death in 1766 was succeeded by Charles Friend. John Roderick, an auctioneer, bought the house in 1824. He purchased the premises next door too, and the Acorn Inn became the Acorn Hotel. Roderick kept the house until 1832, when his brother-in-law, Thomas Chambers, a former draper in Bull Street, took over. Later licensees include William Evans, a former footman to Birmingham's first MP, Thomas Atwood. Thomas Prideaux followed him as licensee in I851. He opened the Acorn Vaults in the rear of the hotel, facing onto Needless Alley. These same Vaults were updated from the drawings of architect William Hale from plans prepared by him on 8 August 1878. James Clements, another auctioneer, took over the hotel from Prideaux, expanding into 33 and 331/2 Temple Street. Local historian Eliezer Edwards, in his Old Taverns of Birmingham, wrote of the Acorn:
ONE of the most pleasant of the old taverns, the Acorn,
in Temple Street, now in the centre of the busy
life of modern Birmingham was, in its early days,
in the 'very outskirts of the town. The east side of
that street WaS occupied by a continuous line of houses, having
gardens s running back to Needless Alley. On the opposite side,
near the bottom, there was built in Queen Anne's time, a stately
Mansion, which forty or fifty years ago was the residence of the
great Whig politician "Joe” Parkes. Part of it remains, and is
used as offices. From this point this street for SOme distance
was open to the fields, but there were a few houses near the top,
and at the corner, on the site of the Clarendon, there was
another old tavern, the Globe.
Between the roadway and the footpath, on the West
side of Temple Street, was a row of trees from New Street to the top. From the hospitable
doorway of the Acorn the eye looked across the fields, which
then existed where Waterloo Street now stands, to the Coney
Grove, which gave its name to Congreve Street, and whose site,
where the the rabbits hid in the thickets, is now occupied by the
Council House. Beyond, a little to the left, was a glorious landscape
rising gradually until it culminated in the tree-covered
heights of Warley and the Lightwoods.
From the tree tops opposite was heard the Song of the throstle and the blackbird,
whilst through the open windows of the Acorn came the sweet
breath of the bean blossoms from the fields on Bennett's Hill,
or the fragrant odour of newly made hay, borne by the westerly from
the pleasant park of the Colmores, of the New
Hall. No country Inn of modern days looks upon a more
luxuriant landscape than then lay before the old house known
as the Acorn, in Temple Stret "In alcoves and harbours of the garden at it’s back sat,
in summer evenings, the quiet and steady going lorimers and buckle makers, who, as they
solemny smoked their long pipes, talked over business with London or Bristol merchants,
or arranged a barter with a chapman from Hull or Liverpool.
Before the floor was lowered, the height of the smoking room was only seven or eight feet.
It was lighted at night by candles, one of which, with its necessary accompaniment, a pair of
snuffers, stood on each table. The candlesticks in which they were placed were nearly two feet high.
When the tall candles which were used were first lighted the flames reached to within a short
distance of the ceiling.
When there were a dozen or twenty smokers at work the atmosphere of the low room was
so dense that it was not easy to distinguish the features of those who sat far away.
In Mr Roderick's time he always sat in the centre chair at the top of the room, the table
which stood there being distinguished by having two candles. At eight o'clock of every evening,
except Saturday and Sunday, silence was called, and he proceeded to read aloud the
most interesting items of the London evening papers of the previous day.
Saturday was excepted because on that evening there was what was then called a
free-and-easy.
Jayell
master brummie
1861 census shows a Joseph Bandano and wife living at the Turkish Divan in Manchester. BandanO was a cigar merchant from Africa. His wife came from Nottingham. The Post Office Directory of Birmingham for 1867 has Bandano listed at the Sultan Divan in Needless Alley.
1864 death cert. for Kate Thur (daughter of a nephew of Bandano William Thur who worked as a waiter in a refreshment room (probably the Grand Sultan Divan, died at 6 Needles Alley Birmingham - was this the address of the GSD?
Grand Sultan Divan is mentioned in a periodical called "Brum" which was published in 1869. Prostitutes used to gather at the house of ill repute in Needless Alley. I will try and copy the relevant page, but not sure how to reduce the size.
In the 1871 Census the Sultan Divan is listed as a Refreshment House and the owner is Henry Hicken from Nottingham. My gt.grandfather's sister, Jane Martin was working there as Nurserymaid/servant and she was 17 years old.
Showell's: Sultan Divan - formerly a questionable place of amusement was bought for £7,500 and opened by the YMCA 7 January 1875.
It was said in another publication that "the notorious dancing saloon was later transformed by the YMCA from a source of untold evil into one of great blessing for young men" And Dennis's map shows the position of the YMCA.
Judy
1864 death cert. for Kate Thur (daughter of a nephew of Bandano William Thur who worked as a waiter in a refreshment room (probably the Grand Sultan Divan, died at 6 Needles Alley Birmingham - was this the address of the GSD?
Grand Sultan Divan is mentioned in a periodical called "Brum" which was published in 1869. Prostitutes used to gather at the house of ill repute in Needless Alley. I will try and copy the relevant page, but not sure how to reduce the size.
In the 1871 Census the Sultan Divan is listed as a Refreshment House and the owner is Henry Hicken from Nottingham. My gt.grandfather's sister, Jane Martin was working there as Nurserymaid/servant and she was 17 years old.
Showell's: Sultan Divan - formerly a questionable place of amusement was bought for £7,500 and opened by the YMCA 7 January 1875.
It was said in another publication that "the notorious dancing saloon was later transformed by the YMCA from a source of untold evil into one of great blessing for young men" And Dennis's map shows the position of the YMCA.
Judy
To add a little, the Birmingham post has adverts for the Sultan divan in December 1862, as shown previously, so it must have been going then. It seemed to close for a while after though (raided??) and from early Jan 1863 was putting in regular adverts like the early one, but with the addition of “opening on Feb. 28[SUP]th[/SUP]”
Jayell
master brummie
Thanks for that Mike. I would love to know more about this place - it sounds fascinating. I did find this in the Birmingham Post dated 4 December 1886. It is a piece about Henry Hickin who ran the Sultan Divan in 1871.
A WELL-KNOWN CHARACTER IN TROUBLE - Henry Hicken (60) no occupation and giving the address No.6 Birmingham (!!) was charged with stealing a travelling rug, value £2.5s. from inside the shopdoor of William Sheffield, 82 New Street. He was seen to take the rug from the doorway, and was pointed out to Police-constable 43A, who chased and arrested him. He admitted taking the rug. There was a long list of previous convictions against the prisoner, including some sentences of penal servitude, and he was sent to the Sessions. Hicken was the proprietor of the once notorious Sultan Divan, the premises of which in Neeless Alley, are now occupied by the YMCA.
Judy
A WELL-KNOWN CHARACTER IN TROUBLE - Henry Hicken (60) no occupation and giving the address No.6 Birmingham (!!) was charged with stealing a travelling rug, value £2.5s. from inside the shopdoor of William Sheffield, 82 New Street. He was seen to take the rug from the doorway, and was pointed out to Police-constable 43A, who chased and arrested him. He admitted taking the rug. There was a long list of previous convictions against the prisoner, including some sentences of penal servitude, and he was sent to the Sessions. Hicken was the proprietor of the once notorious Sultan Divan, the premises of which in Neeless Alley, are now occupied by the YMCA.
Judy
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Teddy Fan
master brummie
All of these great stories and pictures bring the old town centre alive - my thanks to everyone.
As a young office junior I worked in Temple Street for Grimley & Sons (way back when!). I had to walk the length and breadth of town on a regular basis fetching and carrying for staff members. It was the best part of my job as I loved exploring the streets and alleys and looking at the buildings - it's fascinating now to learn more of the history behind the places I passed every day.
As a young office junior I worked in Temple Street for Grimley & Sons (way back when!). I had to walk the length and breadth of town on a regular basis fetching and carrying for staff members. It was the best part of my job as I loved exploring the streets and alleys and looking at the buildings - it's fascinating now to learn more of the history behind the places I passed every day.
Spent a happy hour or so last night sorting through a pile of photos taken in the 70's when I had more hair and silly shoes.
Lots of old shop fronts long gone as well as a few of Snow Hill station when the rails had gone but you could still walk the tunnel from Moor Street.
Though not titled this one I think is Holliday Passage looking from the Holliday Street end up the slope toward the old Royal Mail sorting office
https://images.birminghamhistory.co.uk/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=233&pid=11104#top_display_media
The others I will upload and provide links.
Lots of old shop fronts long gone as well as a few of Snow Hill station when the rails had gone but you could still walk the tunnel from Moor Street.
Though not titled this one I think is Holliday Passage looking from the Holliday Street end up the slope toward the old Royal Mail sorting office
https://images.birminghamhistory.co.uk/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=233&pid=11104#top_display_media
The others I will upload and provide links.
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Phil posted this on another Forum....very interesting site and some stuff on FIRE OFFICE PASSAGE...in New Street....
https://www.birminghamconservationtrust. ... e-service/
https://www.birminghamconservationtrust. ... e-service/
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Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Another one from Phil...not known to me...CLEVE TERRACE..ran from Wheeleys Lane to Owen Street...
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cuppateabiscuit
master brummie
Hi Dennis,
Do you have the part of this map where Wheeley's Lane meets Owen Street? I think its by the Welcome Inn, my family lived there, so it would be lovely to see.
J
Do you have the part of this map where Wheeley's Lane meets Owen Street? I think its by the Welcome Inn, my family lived there, so it would be lovely to see.
J
cuppateabiscuit
master brummie
Thanks Mike, that's perfect. I have some photo's, but they lived in the court behind.
