Nellie Fisher's beer house on 'western end' of Summer Lane

[LSt1603]

Hello everyone,

I was recently told by a distant relative that my great-great-grandmother, Nellie Fisher (née Bunford), owned a 'beer house' on the 'western end' of Summer Lane. I'm not sure what that means, as Summer Lane runs north to south, but that's what I was told.
She first married a Carroll, then remarried into the Fisher family in 1919 and died in 1959, so this will be 1920s to 1950s.

Would anybody happen to have any information on this at all?

Many thanks,

Luke.

 

[MWS]

On the 1921 census and the 1925 & 1927 ERs she (and family listed) are living at 1 back 19 (1 court 6) Ormond St.

On 1939 register and later ERs they are listed at 143 Summer Lane.

There is nothing other than a number listed for each on the 1950 map but I don't think that would be unusual for a beer house.

 

[MWS]

From the 1950s at the same address is a Thomas Griffin and there is a newspaper report in the Evening Despatch 20 Mar 1953 that appears to say that Thomas Griffin of 143 Summer Lane was fined £10 for assisting in keeping a betting house.

 

[LSt1603]

From the 1950s at the same address is a Thomas Griffin and there is a newspaper report in the Evening Despatch 20 Mar 1953 that appears to say that Thomas Griffin of 143 Summer Lane was fined £10 for assisting in keeping a betting house.

I read that totally open-mouthed!

My auntie always tells me about how 'Mrs Fisher' had a friend who everybody in the neighbour hood called 'Tommy on the Top', who used to take bets in the '50s.

I do have a FindMyPast account, so I was able to check the 1939 census. I was going to say I was sceptical as her husband William Fisher is listed as a coffin maker and Nellie is down as 'unpaid domestic duties'. But then I saw that the census-taker came to their house from Moorsom Street, then went onto Frankfort Street. So I looked at an NLS map from the 1890s, and sure enough, there is a pub on Summer Lane exactly at the junction between Frankfort and Moorsom streets.

Also, I had a look elsewhere on these forums, and there were two pubs there, Green Man at 141 Summer Lane, and Cross Guns directly opposite. https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/summer-lane.19568/post-468463

Thank you ever so much for your help, that newspaper article is amazing!

 

[MWS]

Sadly that is not no. 143, I think that is no. 252. Here's a map with 143 marked (and 19 Ormond St)...



There were many pubs on Summer Lane, as you can see there are even 3 on the above snippet (not including no. 252).

 

[LSt1603]

Sadly that is not no. 143, I think that is no. 252. Here's a map with 143 marked (and 19 Ormond St)...

View attachment 173089

There were many pubs on Summer Lane, as you can see there are even 3 on the above snippet (not including no. 252).

Thank you for the map! According to some searches I've just done, 253 Summer Lane was The Crossed Guns pub, and 141 Summer Lane was the Green Man pub, almost directly opposite. You can see the Green Man on the corner of Moorsom Street on your map, but the Crossed Guns were directly opposite, which is cut off from the map.

A (Sleep) Walk Down Summer Lane – 4

In part 2 the poem from Beryl Evans, A (Sleep) Walk Down Summer Lane, gave us a snapshot of Beryl’s childhood memories of the street where she lived. This is the second part o…

uncletomstales.com

On the 1939 Register, Charles A. Tiltman, public house manager, lived at 140 Summer Lane. 141 was the pub itself. 142 Summer Lane, which doesn't appear to be a separate building to the Green Man, has 23 people living there, maybe they lived below/above the pub?

 

[mikejee]

In the 1939 Kellys William Fisher , was a herb beer maker at 143 summer Lane

 

[Astoness]

you most likely know this but i think the difference between a pub and beerhouse is that a beer house could only sell beer not spirits...very often a beerhouse could be run from someones front room....think ive got that right

lyn

 

[mikejee]

Yes Lyn. that is correct, but note my post 7 , which was posted just before yours, and you probably did not see

 

[mikejee]

William Fisher is also listed at no 143 in 1940 edition, but not the 1938 or 1943 editions

 

[Astoness]

Yes Lyn. that is correct, but note my post 7 , which was posted just before yours, and you probably did not see

yes missed your post mike...i have got a few photo of the green man on the opposite corner to 143...could be an idea to search the summer lane thread as there could be a photo on there of no 143

lyn

 

[mikejee]

All the photos I have just show the buildings on the Green man side of the junction

 

[LSt1603]

you most likely know this but i think the difference between a pub and beerhouse is that a beer house could only sell beer not spirits...very often a beerhouse could be run from someones front room....think ive got that right

lyn

Running a beer house out of your front room would not make your neighbours happy if they owned pubs directly opposite and another just two doors down! The Fishers must have had some arguments...

 

[Astoness]

All the photos I have just show the buildings on the Green man side of the junction

same here mike..its a bit late now but tomorrow i will do a better search

lyn

 

[Astoness]

Running a beer house out of your front room would not make your neighbours happy if they owned pubs directly opposite and another just two doors down! The Fishers must have had some arguments...

to be honest i dont think it would have made much of a difference as in those days there really was a pub on every corner of summer lane and plenty of people around at that time to fill them all

lyn

 

[LSt1603]

Here's a full map of Nellie's addresses, 1903–1939, along with all nearby pubs facing onto Summer Lane.

I was specifically told that the beer house she 'owned' was on the west side of Summer Lane, meaning the left side of the road.

 

[mikejee]

There is this not very good aerial photo of the back from 1951

 

[mikejee]

to be honest i dont think it would have made much of a difference as in those days there really was a pub on every corner of summer lane and plenty of people around at that time to fill them all

lyn

And if it was herb beer, then effectively non-alcoholic, so would not interfere with the "real " beerhouses

 

[LSt1603]

From the 1950s at the same address is a Thomas Griffin and there is a newspaper report in the Evening Despatch 20 Mar 1953 that appears to say that Thomas Griffin of 143 Summer Lane was fined £10 for assisting in keeping a betting house.

I managed to get a hold of the full article.

Thomas Griffin was the lookout at the entrance for an illicit betting shop owned by Joe Wheeler at 139 Summer Lane, next to the Green Man pub, where they had a loudspeaker calling out race results and betting odds in the yard. The Wheelers lived three miles away in Perry Barr. On 20 February 1953, police searched the property and found 4,691 betting slips covering just three days. When they entered through the back entrance on Moorsom Street, they immediately arrested Griffin so that he couldn't warn the others. In the end, police fined nine people a total of £210, or around £4,100 in current prices.

 

[brianthelion]

And if it was herb beer, then effectively non-alcoholic, so would not interfere with the "real " beerhouses

Hops are herbaceous maybe it’s a way round things?

 

[LSt1603]

William Fisher is also listed at no 143 in 1940 edition, but not the 1938 or 1943 editions

William Fisher died in 1944, so potentially he got ill and couldn't keep the business up. It's also possible Nellie Fisher took over the business after that. Were Kelly's Directories produced for 1941, 1942 and later?

 

[mikejee]

No 143 is not listed in the Kellys for 1943,44 and 46, which probably means it was then a private residence

 

[LSt1603]

No 143 is not listed in the Kellys for 1943,44 and 46, which probably means it was then a private residence

Ah, I see. Many thanks for all your help!

 

[mikejee]

My previous post concerng herbal brewers might I'm this case be incorrect. . certainly some people described as herbal brewers were brewing products like ginger beer, which had a very low alcoholic content, but apparently herbs were also used as a replacement to hops in increasing the life of alcoholic beer

 

[LSt1603]

There is this not very good aerial photo of the back from 1951

View attachment 173093

Found a much higher quality version of this image:

EAW037616 ENGLAND (1951). The Brass Works on Moorsom Street and environs, Birmingham, 1951. This image has been produced from a print marked by Aerofilms Ltd for photo editing. | Britain From Above

www.britainfromabove.org.uk

Also two other angles from same site (attached). The original photographs show a much wider view as well.

 

[Astoness]

Here's a full map of Nellie's addresses, 1903–1939, along with all nearby pubs facing onto Summer Lane.

I was specifically told that the beer house she 'owned' was on the west side of Summer Lane, meaning the left side of the road.
View attachment 173092

hi luke on your map is a pub called the red lion..so far no photo has ever been found of it..demolished in the 1920s/30s to make way for the police station so if anyone finds one i would love to see it..may i also say luke that at the age of 25 it is so nice to see someone so young taking a keen interest in their family history..keep up the good work..

lyn

 

[LSt1603]

hi luke on your map is a pub called the red lion..so far no photo has ever been found of it..demolished in the 1920s/30s to make way for the police station so if anyone finds one i would love to see it..may i also say luke that at the age of 25 it is so nice to see someone so young taking a keen interest in their family history..keep up the good work..

lyn

There might be an aerial photo of it on Britain from Above, I'll have a look for you.

"25"... If you're impressed by that, wait till you find out that I'm actually 23 and I've been doing this on and off since I was 10!

 

[Astoness]

wow a budding historian then an aerial photo would be good thanks..ps your date of birth is wrong on your info it says you are 25 but no matter

lyn

 

[LSt1603]

hi luke on your map is a pub called the red lion..so far no photo has ever been found of it..demolished in the 1920s/30s to make way for the police station so if anyone finds one i would love to see it.

Hi Lyn,

Britain From Above only has photos of the police station unfortunately.

-L