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Midland Red Early Days

Rupert said:
Would the D9 be the last of the front engine double deck busses. Do you still have a conductor on the rear engine front entrance busses or does the driver fill both duties.
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I think London Transport continued purchasing Routemasters after Midland Red stopped making D9s. The D10 of which 2 prototypes were produced was Midland Red's attempt at a front entrance doubledecker although the engine was underfloor rather than at the rear see https://midlandred.net/fleet/bmmo/d10/index.shtml Also I am not sure when the last Bristol Loddeka was produced.

The modern design of front entrance rear engine doubledeckers came in 1958 (Leyland Atlantean) and 1960 (Daimler Fleetline). At first they continued to have conductors. I am not sure when one man operation was allowed on double deckers .
 
I really cannot believe that ugly contraption (the Bus not Boris, well both actually) is being seriously condidered for public service. What is London,s problem with buses?

They have had so called tailor made vehicles in pre war times, then the RT which was basically an AEC Regent then following on with the Routemaster which I suppose did have a few advanced points. What I dont understand is that London is just like any other large city, except its larger, so if Birmingham can put up with Fleetlines, Metrobuses et all then I cant see no logical reason why London cant,

So now they are goiong to have this cocktail of a vehicle that suprisigly does have some british input. I presume the rear door, for occasional use, is to apease Londoners who could never quite grasp the concept of having the door at the front just as they could never get used to having buses in any other colour than Red. I think its time someone "Got real"!!!
 
Ref Bill's comments above about the "Borismaster".

Wright Bus have the contract to build the prototypes and good luck to them. However I don't see it going into squadron service because surely no one outside London will want one and without the bigger market the production costs will be too high. When London Transport covered the massive geographical area they did with both the red and the green bus networks they could afford to design their own buses and get them made in the numbers that included c7,000 RTs and c2,500 RMs. But with the country area transfered first to National Bus then privatised and the red buses divided up over many operators I just don't see it working.

Boris stood for election on a Bring back the Routemaster platform. This is now completely impracticable as Ken Livingstone found out. Boris's objective is really about getting rid of the bendibuses. I took this picture in February last year of a bus on the no 18 route at Euston Station. In November as part of the "Debendification" programme the 32 bendibuses on this service were replaced with 48 double deckers and I was there in December watching the double deckers following one another along the road increasing the congestion.

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Here is a fine painting of Midland Red C1 coach 3325 (KHA325) by Mike Jeffries (BHF member "artistmike"). It is seen at Cheltenham coach station, which we have discussed earlier on this thread.

Thanks Mike! :thumbsup:

[Oops! Not only have we discussed Cheltenham coach station before, we have also discovered this Mike Jeffries picture (and his website). See post #1214 and following posts.]
 
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OK lads and ladettes, lets get back to the "good old days".

Lyn "Astoness" posted the fascinating picture attached below on her old brum mag pics.. thread. It is captioned "Works outing Oliver Street 1920". The bus at the rear is fleet number A113 (registered OE 1142 Tilling-Stevens TS3 with Brush B29F body). We've seen plenty of TS3s on this thread, but this particular one has an interesting history, and I'm pretty sure we haven't seen a picture of it before. It was new to Midland Red in 1919, but was sold to Potteries Electric Traction Co Ltd (PET) in 1920 and re-registered EH 2392. The chassis was returned to Midland Red in 1922 as fleet number A276, and was re-bodied as a van and again re-registered, this time to OA 7101. This was in exchange for Daimler Y (HA 1655) which we have discussed before (posts #65 and #67). OA 7101 was finally broken up in 1927.

Can anyone identify the small charabanc in front? It looks rather like a Ford T, but the registration (from what I can see of it) doesn't seem to match any vehicle in the Midland Red fleet. What do you think Lloyd?
 
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Judging by the attire of the people in the car, as opposed to those standing by the bus, I'd say the car belonged to (or was hired by) the firm's owner.
I can't clearly make out the number either - is it OE 1122? Doubtful as that was the first of the Red's 1919 batch of Tilling Stevens TS3s.
Unless the plate was borrowed temporarily for a hire car...

The car appears to be a Manchester (Trafford Park) built Ford model T, being right hand drive, with a standard type of 4 seat tourer body.
 
Thanks, Lloyd! I also thought it was OE 1122, but one or more of the 2s could be a 7. And of course it's a car not a charabanc (my bad!).

Peter Hardy's list of Midland Red "ancillary vehicles" mentions a Ford 20 hp tourer new in 1919 but registered OE 5601. Perhaps a borrowed plate as you suggest? Bit of a long shot, but you never know ...
 
The model T was 20hp, certainly.
I think the car is earlier than 1919, it has the angular brass radiator that had been replaced by the black pressed steel one by 1920ish.
Perhaps the registration is Staffordshire - E 1122 (or 1127, 1172, 1177 etc) with an AA or RAC badge to the left of the plate.
 
Thought I'd share another image I have added to my collection of Tilling Stevens on High Street Harborne around the corner from Duke of York) in 1912. It is from the O-992x series but I can't tell which one - any guesses?

Note it is two doors down the High St from the other pictures (you can see the Player's adverts on the Newsagents to the left along with the Radiator of the bus behind, which may be one of the earlier buses pictured) outside Spratt's Pet Food Store.

Some loverly lady passengers this time who have bagged the best seat (unless you are a bus driver lol ). They are dressed in summer attire which lend credence to the theory developed on this thread of this being the first run of the route in June 1912.

I also add a pic of a corporation Bus in 1922 (as I'm not sure where else to post it) facing down War Lane with Albert Road behind and right, opposite the Duke of York, Harborne. Still with solid tyres.
 
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Many years ago I met an old lady from Harborne who told me that on Harborne Hill gentlemen were often asked to get off the bus and walk up the hill if the bus had a full load. Coming down the hill the driver would run the wheels against the kerb to slow the bus down. She also told me that they would let buses go by until a more comfortable Daimler came along but I do not know if that was in Midland Red or BCT days.

On a side issue the same lady told me that in her day she was one of the few lady car drivers as her father taught her as a young girl to drive sitting on the fireside rug and using the poker as a pretend gear lever.
 
Interesting David - coming down the hill scraping off the curb must have been a bit hair-raising - great detail. I have read that on Harborne Hill and other steep hills the buses had to reverse up (not exactly sure why that would help - but hope someone can).
 
Aidan
Reverse gear is a lowere gear than any of the forward ones, so if the engine is really clapped out, then you stand more chances of (eventually) getting up a steep hill. Forty odd years ago a friend of mine (who was then working for Midland Red) told me that he used to have a car like that .
 
Aidan, you're assembling an enviable collection of early bus pictures! :cool: Thanks for sharing them with us.

This one is particularly fine (and of acceptably high resolution!). I love the way the driver and conductor are posing proudly! The setting with the shop signs is also fascinating.

We can be sure that it is O 9921, because the "bonnet number" (21) can be seen clearly behind the driver's seat. The bonnet number (though not on the bonnet in this case) was the effective fleet number in the "early days" (until after WW2 actually). It usually consisted of the last two or three digits of the registration number. So anorakian details are:

O 9921: Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (40 hp petrol-electric chassis number unknown) with Brush O18/16RO body number BB21. It was new in June 1912 for the Harborne service (as seen). It passed to Birmingham Corporation (under the "Birmingham Agreement") on 5 October 1914 as fleet number 21, and was finally broken up in 1924.

I agree that the picture was taken in June 1912 or soon afterwards. The bus looks brand new, and the "rocker panels" (to prevent children getting under the bus) are yet to be fitted. It's the first picture I've seen of this particular bus. It's also worth observing that this was the first batch of vehicles to carry the "Midland" fleet name.

[I'll let Lloyd give the run down on the BCT Leyland OK 5485. Another lovely picture, which Corporation enthusiasts would surely like to see over on the "Birmingham Buses" thread. Don't remove it from here though! ;)]
 
That's a good idea David, I will, but first I have been thinking of the task of getting up Harborne Hill (or Love Hill as it used to be called). I think the stories are getting mixed up. I think in the time of horse buses, the gentleman used to be asked to walk up the hill and I think it would be unlikely that they were asked to push as well. With the very early motor-buses they were very underpowered and may have had to reverse up but I think it unlikely and highly dangerous to have tried to push (although maybe the gents were still asked to hoof it?)

I attach two pics of the Harborne Horse Bus c1900-1905. I like to think the first is located at the bottom of Harborne hill before the big climb and with the passengers alighted. Lead horse looks a bit worse for wear. I'd like to know where that second pic is at as the wall seems vaguely familiar. In both cases there seems to be a team of 3 horses which seems an unusual number and I wondered if anyone could explain?
 
Aidan, thanks for sharing those fascinating pictures. The "horsepower" could vary from two to four depending on passenger load and gradient, as can be seen in these pictures posted by Lloyd (a long time ago). I wonder what Florador Food was.

Horse bus proprietors could be (and certainly were in London) prosecuted for ill-treatment of horses. It would be interesting to know if there were any such prosecutions in Birmingham.

The fleet name on the bus in your second picture could be "Birmingham General Omnibus Co Ltd". I would also like to know where the picture was taken. Perhaps near the BGO depot in Taunton Road, Sparkbrook?
 
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Another picture of Tilling-Stevens O 9921, seen in High Street, Harborne, in the "early 1920s". The full scene from which this was extracted was posted by "leslam" on the Harborne thread.

If the date is correct (the hats look right, but can anyone confirm?) this is a very rare picture of one of the 1912 TTA2s in service with Birmingham Corporation.
 
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It has got a proper radiator "badge" anyway! I wonder if the sailor-hatted passenger is a clue to it being 1914-1918?
 
What do you mean, it is still fashionable now!

wikimeister says "The cloche hat is a fitted, bell-shaped hat that was popular during the 1920s, but was first founded in 1908 and continued to be popular until 1933"
 
Aidan said:
What do you mean, it is still fashionable now! ...
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[Yes indeed. I still wear mine on special occasions ...]

Further detective work on the Harborne thread (q v) has narrowed the date of the pictue of O 9921 in post #1369 to 1921. Numerologists please note!
 
Leslam has very kindly supplied the attached pictures of classic Harborne buses. They are from Martin Hampson's Harborne: The Second Selection (Tempus, 2002, ISBN 07524 26583) and are captioned as follows:
[1] The first horse bus ran between Harborne and Birmingham, c 1840, taking an hour, but becoming an instant success, since it also catered for people travelling for short distances. Initially, dozens appeared, mostly operated by proprietors owning one or two vehicles only; but by 1849 the service was run solely by a Mr Turner, who ultimately amalgamated with a later rival, Mr Taylor. This photograph of c 1900 shows a bus owned by City of Birmingham Tramways, licensed at this time to operate nine horse buses per hour between New Street and Harborne.

[2] This Thornycroft motor bus, also operated by City of Birmingham Tramways, was actually hired from London Motor Omnibus Co, and was run in Birmingham for a few months during 1905. It is seen here at Five Ways on the Birmingham-Harborne run. With a rear entrance and outside stairs, it carried twelve passengers inside and eighteen upstairs.

[3] Built in 1912 for Midland Red (successor of CBT), this Tilling-Stevens motor bus was taken over in October 1914 by Birmingham Corporation following the city's Act of the same year; thirty buses were transferred along with the Tennant Street (Five Ways) garage. Seen here, in around 1920, and withdrawn in 1924, it carried sixteen passengers inside and eighteen outside. There was a rear entrance and external staircase.

[4] A motor bus bound for Birmingham, with solid tyres and outside stairs, waits by Harborne Terrace, c 1926. Although the possibility of a tram service to Harborne had been considered, plans were abandoned following opposition from the Calthorpe Estate, who allowed tram services on the fringes of Edgbaston (Hagley Road and Bristol Road), but vetoed trams passing through Chad Valley, the heart of the garden suburb.​
 
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Superb pics - Thank you Thylacine & Leslam - doubled my Harborne collection overnight!

The last photo appears to be further down the High Street from the 3 TS pictured earlier on the thread, just around the corner from Duke Of York although I didn't know it was called Harborne Terrace.

Please sire can I have some more....detail about the last two Buses please (and any more pictures of course)
 
Some notes on the pictures in post #1374:
[1] On 21 July 1905 this City of Birmingham Tramways Co Ltd (CBT) horse bus (if it was still in service) passed to the new Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd (BMMO: later known as Midland "Red") as one of its fleet of 119 horse buses.

[2] O 1279 was hired (as a demonstrator) from London Motor Omnibus Co Ltd by Birmingham Motor Express Co Ltd (BME) — not CBT — between March and November 1905. There's a technical description of this bus in post #642, and a history of BME in post #637. This same picture (in a more complete form) is seen in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 17 lower left).

[3] O 9923 has a similar history to O 9921: Tilling-Stevens TTA2 40 hp petrol-electric chassis (number 14) with Brush O18/16RO body (number BB23). It was new in June 1912, passed to Birmingham Corporation on 5 October 1914 and was broken up in 1924. It is also seen in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 24 lower right) in 1913 probably at the Quinton "Stag". The Harborne picture again is a rare one of a TTA2 in service with the Corporation. It appears to have lost its ornate "Tilling-Stevens" radiator badge, unlike O 9921 seen above.

[4] I'm out of my comfort zone with this circa 1926 picture of a Birmingham Corporation double-decker. I can't see the registration mark clearly. Perhaps Lloyd will do the honours ...​
Note: Midland Red Volume 1 is our short-hand for:
Paul Gray, Malcolm Keeley, John Seale. Midland Red: A History of the Company and its Vehicles up to 1940. Glossop: Transport Publishing Co, 1978. ISBN 09039 39199.​
 
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The pictures and captions for #1374 are from "Harborne, the second selection" by Martin Hampson, pub Tempus.
The companion volume is "Old Harborne" compiled by Roy Clarke, pub Tempus
 
Thanks Leslam - you can get a good copy of each for a couple of pounds (am just sending for the 2nd edition as I write!) on the well known electronic store
 
For those who are interested in the history of old Birmingham area buses may like to know that bus O 8209 once resided, in the early 1950's, in my garden.

I sense puzzled looks. ;)

A visit to The Bullring, when it was a hive of activity of open air selling, was always a must when visiting the City. (I visited the area in 1979 and I understand it has altered yet again since that time having the appearance more of a shopping mall now.)

I bought a baby chick for 4d. (2p. for those born after decimalization :shocked:). After a while a search was made for a name for the, by now, young bird. A chum, who was just as big a bus nut as I was, suggested O 8209. We believed, rightly or wrongly, that this was the registration of BCT's first bus. Never having seen or heard these antiquarian vehicles we imagined that the vehicle most likely sounded like this bird when it crowed and cackled. Just my luck it wasn't a hen: maybe that's why it was cheap! (pun kept ;))
 
lol Excellent Radiorails - but must have been a bit of a mouthful to call - "here O8209, chicky, chicky"
 
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