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Lionel Street

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
back houses in lionel street...

img760.jpg
 
A good example Lyn of the very close link between domestic and commercial activities around the city. You do wonder how healthy it was though. Here's a drawing of Lionel Street from 1797 - already quite industralised. It's Samuel Thornley's Varnishes and Lacquer factory at # 5 and 6 Lionel Street. Viv.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1333807607.212123.jpg
 
Number 68 Lionel Street has a claim to fame. It was for a short time, in 1802- 1803, the home of Sir Rowland Hill, postal and educational reformer. His father set up a school there. Viv.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1333809737.926062.jpg
 
Viv you screen grabbed that from Open Plaques. I took one of those plaque photos.

https://openplaques.org/plaques/1617


Sir Rowland Hill KCB - blue plaque - Lionel House, 86 Lionel Street, Birmingham by ell brown, on Flickr

There is supposed to be a Rowland Hill plaque somewhere on Hagley Road, but I can't find it (don't think it is at 146 Hagley Road - I checked couldn't see it).

Recently I've tried to find the Birmingham plaques listed on the site. Some I've found, some not. Also found some not on there, and added them.
 
I have been trying to find an old picture or sketch of the lower part of Lionel Street. The end from Livery? Street to Snow Hill. I saw a photo on this site of (I think) the other end, up by the Parade and wondered if the houses would've been the same. The property I'm interested in was, at that time, number 116 and was next door to a pub called the Golden Lion which was on the corner. It was built in the early 1800's, about the same time as Matthew Boulton's warehouse opposite. I know the warehouse was bombed in the war.

The only description I have found said that the road sloped badly from one side to the other. The house was probably demolished to make way for factories and workshops or the garden filled in with back-to-backs.

I wondered if anyone had seen a drawing in a book or something. Any help appreciated.
 
The 1850 directory says for 116
Whitehouse William wood turner at 115 and 116 they were in the wood trade

I have been trying to find an old picture or sketch of the lower part of Lionel Street. The end from Livery? Street to Snow Hill. I saw a photo on this site of (I think) the other end, up by the Parade and wondered if the houses would've been the same. The property I'm interested in was, at that time, number 116 and was next door to a pub called the Golden Lion which was on the corner. It was built in the early 1800's, about the same time as Matthew Boulton's warehouse opposite. I know the warehouse was bombed in the war.

The only description I have found said that the road sloped badly from one side to the other. The house was probably demolished to make way for factories and workshops or the garden filled in with back-to-backs.

I wondered if anyone had seen a drawing in a book or something. Any help appreciated.
 
There seems a bit of a mystery here. Either no 116 and the golden lion moved at some time after the year you are interested in (which is very possible if you are talking about the very early 1800s), or your information is not wholly correct. From at least 1841 the Golden Lion (no 117) and No 116 were between ludgate hill and livery st, and not on a corner A map showing no 116 in c 1889 is below, but the numbering and position of the pub are certainly the same back to 1841

map_c_1889_lionel_st_between_ludgate_hill_and_livery_st__golden_lion.jpg
 
Do not forget the Post Office renumbered streets and roads in Brum sometime in the 1800,s or was it early in the 1900s,

There seems a bit of a mystery here. Either no 116 and the golden lion moved at some time after the year you are interested in (which is very possible if you are talking about the very early 1800s), or your information is not wholly correct. From at least 1841 the Golden Lion (no 117) and No 116 were between ludgate hill and livery st, and not on a corner A map showing no 116 in c 1889 is below, but the numbering and position of the pub are certainly the same back to 1841

map_c_1889_lionel_st_between_ludgate_hill_and_livery_st__golden_lion.jpg
 
Not all streets were renumbered. Where they were this was usually around 1884. There seems to have been no renumbering between 1841 & 1962. As I said previously there could well have been a renumbering before this, though in many cases before this no numbers for individual houses were listed.
 
Thank you both for your input. You are perfectly right - I am confused and have been for some time! The information I have is for really early in the 19th Century, Thomas Geast, Surgeon is listed as living at 116 Lionel Street (previously he was in Snow Hill). I also have a will of a George Geast, living at the same address in 1814. I'm including a scan of Thomas Hanson's map of 1778 which shows the Colmore Development creeping towards St Paul's. This is from Paul Leslie Line's book Birmingham: A History in Maps.

Thomas Hanson 1778.jpg

The mid-1800's map shows different buildings entirely and I think rather than building courts at the back they demolished these houses. I can't seem to see Ludgate Hill either, perhaps this came later?

Any thoughts on this part of Lionel Street would be much appreciated.
 
For what its worth the 1823 directory states
Geast Thomas Surgeon 116 Lionel St

In the 1770 directory there are

Geast Henry Attorney Deritend
Geast Joseph 40 Digbeth
Geast Mary Grocer 18 Dudley St
Geast Robert butcher 20 Philip St
Geast Thomas 12 publican 9 Moor St
Geast William pearl button maker 30 Cherry St



Thank you both for your input. You are perfectly right - I am confused and have been for some time! The information I have is for really early in the 19th Century, Thomas Geast, Surgeon is listed as living at 116 Lionel Street (previously he was in Snow Hill). I also have a will of a George Geast, living at the same address in 1814. I'm including a scan of Thomas Hanson's map of 1778 which shows the Colmore Development creeping towards St Paul's. This is from Paul Leslie Line's book Birmingham: A History in Maps.

View attachment 84901

The mid-1800's map shows different buildings entirely and I think rather than building courts at the back they demolished these houses. I can't seem to see Ludgate Hill either, perhaps this came later?

Any thoughts on this part of Lionel Street would be much appreciated.
 
By 1889 the railway had cut through that part of the street, but below is a large scale map of what was there then. Also a section of the Pigot smith map of c 1828 . Other than possibly the upholstrey works on the c 1889 map, there seems little the same.
Looking at early directories, the 1829 & 1833 list Edward spencer, who was the landlord of the golden lion in 1841 as being a victualer (no pub named) at 117 Lionel st, so it is reasonable to assume that the golden lion was still at 117 in 1829. There was also a victualer at 117 in 1823. no numbers are given for the 1818 directory. I would say that it is probable that no renumbering took place after 1829, and very likely that it did not occur between 1818 & 1823.
As to Ludgate hill, this was then part of Church St, and became ludgate hill sometime between 1808 & 1832

map_c_1889_east_end_lionel_st.jpg



east_lionel_st__c_1828.jpg

 
Right - that's given me a lot of food for thought. I know that by March of 1826 he had moved to Monument Place (a terrace of large houses on Monument Road just where the Church of the Redeemer is now). His obituary mentions this house. That's another mystery for another day. Meanwhile, thanks again.
 
Just a postscript to the previous post - I spent a cold and rainy Saturday afternoon compiling a list of all the inhabitants and businesses etc. and have most of those named living in Lionel St in 1818 now. I drove up and down the street yesterday, noting the new numbers and trying to work out where various places would've been. Thanks to the info and maps you posted and details I had before I believe that the original houses where not numbered when the plots were first sold.

Then they started on the north side and numbered from Snow Hill from 1 to about 70 (ish). Then coming back from Summer Row, Albion Mill is 81-89 and they ended up back at Snow Hill with about No.147. The list shows a real mix of businesses and residences and some 'back-ofs'. Lots of '1/2s' too. Certainly not the nice residential area it has set out to be. I feel quite sorry for this road as there are no pictures and it only gets mentioned as 'cross over Lionel Street or go down Lionel St'. Yet it's a real example of how Birmingham was at that time.

The modern buildings seem to follow the old numbering so I don't think they were changed.

Birmingham Archives had papers from the original Colmore lease transactions for this street in the early 1770's (with 114 year leases) so I shall add that to my ever-grown list of look-ups. Maybe they will have a plan too.

Lastly, do you know whether the Highland Laddie pub at No. 20 was on any maps or had it gone by then? Also the Fox & Dogs at No. 46. They may have just been beer houses. Thanks.
 
What years are you talking about as Fox and Dogs is in the 1868 directory


"Lastly, do you know whether the Highland Laddie pub at No. 20 was on any maps or had it gone by then? Also the Fox & Dogs at No. 46. They may have just been beer houses. Thanks. "
 
Below is map c 1889 showing all three pubs. the fox & goose is named. No 20 is not named, but is next to no 19, which is the varnish factory in c1889

map_c_1889_lionel_st_pubs.jpg
 
Mikejee - The map's great, thanks. I wanted confirmation that I had the numbering roughly right for the street and that does the trick.

Horsencart - it wasn't so much the date just the position of the pubs which I knew could possibly be marked.
 
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