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Knotts/Blunns/Pages living in Birmingham

ginger_cat

ginger_cat

knowlegable brummie
A very long shot I know, however I am now at the end of possibility and wondered if anyone had any suggestions as to where I could find some more information as I have tried every avenue I could and seem to be getting no-where! :redface:

I am searching for my Great-Grandmother. I know her name when she married was Clara Knott. All her childrens births are also reg with the surname Knott.

I have her wedding certificate and know that she married in 1914 in Birmingham, her father was William Knott, however usually they were both living together already in Birmingham. Polling book searches indicate this was actually her husbands Parents address and they only lived there a short time before moving to Sun Street.

Her married name was Cooke, she remarried some time later and became Britton. I believe I have found her death certificate, which states her birth as 3rd Jan 1893 in Birmingham. However I have been in touch with Birmingham reg office who say they have searched for a Clara Knott from 1890 - 1895 and have nothing!

I checked the 1911 Census and have found 2 possibilities 1 is that she was born in Kent in 1894. The other is even more complicated :(, I have a Clara Knott living in Birmingham however birth is 1895, and appears she could actually be Clara Page at birth. However again can not find her birth certicate although census states she was born in Birmingham.

Searches indicate her mother Louisa married Arthur Page, Arthur had been previously married to another lady called Louisa and had 5 children. It appears that Louisa was married before to a Knott (not sure who) from the dates would indicate that Arthur did not father Clara appears she just used his name until he died. In 1901 they were living together in Catshill Bromsgrove, Arthur was landlord of a pub called the Plough and Harrow Inn.

On the 1911 census they are living at 29 Spring Street, Arthur has passed away, however the Knott siblings are still living there. Record shows Birt or Bertie Knott and her sister who is now married and called Violet Blunn. Violet has 2 children Mercia and George. Her husband is also called George and was born in Rubery.

Ideally I need to rule one or the other out, or try to find some record which would confirm where Clara Knott was born as there is another rumour they could be Irish.

If anyone reconises a name or knows a way I may be able to find more information it would be very much appreciated.
 
Louisa NOTT married Arthur Page in 1902 Kings Norton although in 1901 she refers to herself as wife.
Violet NOTT married George Blunn in 1902

Violet NOTT birth registered Sept 1885 Wolverhampton 6b 589

There is a Clara NUTT birth registered March 1895 aston 6d 362
cannot find a Clara Nutt on the 1901 census so may be a mis spelling of NOTT.

Had a look at 1891 census but unable to identify Louisa sofar.
 
Wow Alberta thank you so much! :)

Starting to make a bit more sense. I saw from the census Violet was born around 1885. Believe it or not they spelt the maiden name as Nutt on my nans birth record so very strong chance this is her! Must be a common spelling error with Knott.

The marriage information for Arthur and Louisa is fantastic too, really do feel like I am on the right track now thank you sooo much :D

The only concern I have, is that if this is the Clara I am looking for her age doesn't tie in with the marriage certificate, as I have her down as being 21 in 1914??
 
Especially if you had to have your parent's permission if you were under 21
Mike
 
mikejee said:
Especially if you had to have your parent's permission if you were under 21
Mike
Click to expand...

*Blushes* you people are just too clever for me, the fact that she is dead on 21 on the marriage certificate and living with her future husband already would be an indication of that wouldn't it :p.

Makes sense now, especially if any of you knew that side of the family :D

Thank you ;)
 
There is a Clara NUTT birth registered March 1895 aston 6d 362
cannot find a Clara Nutt on the 1901 census so may be a mis spelling of NOTT.


:thumbsup: Just wanted to say a big thank you to all who replied. Have the birth certificate for Clara Nutt born 1895 and is definatly my great nan!

Even better has her father as William, mother is Louisa and born on 3rd Jan!

Would never have taken the plundge if wasn't for you advice and now know which is the right track. So big thank you all :beam:
 
Alberta said:
What was Claras mothers maiden name on birth certificate?
Click to expand...


She was Louisa Taylor. Clara was actually born in Aston Workhouse so wondered if William had already passed away by then?

Does state of Great Barr Street, Bordesley though. Think I may have found Louisa pre marriage, have been looking through the census information and strangly can not find her at all while she was married to William (starting to wonder if she ever was lol). Also have nothing at all for William so not even sure where or when he was born, know he must have died around 1895 - 1900, as they were living with Arthur by 1901 in Bromsgrove.

From 1911 census know that the eldest Violet was born in Wolverhampton, the two boys, Bertie and Alfred were born in Bristol so they must have been there between 1888 & 1889 before moving to Birmingham and having Clara. Suspect if family history is anything to go by there were more children that possibly died in infancy!
 
Since the name gets changed so often could this be them

William NOCK Dec 1884 aston 6d 621
Louisa Taylor Dec 1884 Aston 6d 621
 
I wonder if the Blunn Violet married was related to James's wife Alice?

For those of you wondering how this relates: James was one of Clara's half brothers. William and Edward were the others. All sons of George Nott whom Louisa first married. George died in 1880.
 
Will reply to your posts to make sure I don't forget anything!

Firstly marriage record shows that James & Alice married in Birmingham between Jan-March 1903. Reference 6d 94.

Secondly: I have 2 Alice Blunns living in the area, one is Alice Blunn daughter of Edwin & Elizabeth living in Ladywood Birmingham, the 2nd is Alice Blunn living in Worcestershire with parents Elizabeth and Albert and brother George who would later become Mr Voilet Knott.

Now first question I asked myself was why would they marry in Birmingham when violet & george married in Bromsgrove? Well looks like the Blunns were living around Kings Norton at the time (like most of the Knotts did eventually) and that is where George and Violet were living.

Think the only way to know for certain is to check who her parents were on the marriage certificate. However George's sister Alice was born in Worcestershire according to the records and not Birmingham!
 
They seemed to move around a bit were they canal people??? Bromsgrove , Worcester Bristol al on the same Canal route. Dek
 
dek carr said:
They seemed to move around a bit were they canal people??? Bromsgrove , Worcester Bristol al on the same Canal route. Dek
Click to expand...

:D haha my nan did think she was decended from Gypsy's the gave up and moved in Canada & New Zealand in the end lol.....

Think the moving was due to the fact Louisa was trying to cover up the fact she had 6 children with her dead husbands married Nephew and then moved in with a married man.... could be wrong though :beam:
 
Okay okay okay! Among my Grammie's stuff, I found an old birthday memo book either belonging to my gr aunt Florence or her mother Alice. Unfortunately, there are few first names but I'll give you what I've got:

N. Blunn date written 1878, an L. Blunn no date, F. Blunn 1880 which could possibly be a cousin Florence my Auntie Flo used to write to, G. W. Blunn 1876 I was guessing George Alice's brother and possibly who my Grammie (Bernice) wrote to when she was younger, W. Nott probably James' brother, A. Blunn 1882 which is when Alice was born, Mercier Evaline Blunn 1902, Albert (Henry or Harry?) Blunn no date, and Frank Blunn 1879.

Alice's funeral notice says she was born March 16, 1882 in Birmingham (I have a photocopy of the funeral service card).

Interesting... perhaps Florence was the reason James and Alice got married? Could explain why I've been told he wasn't very nice to Alice ... and, for that matter Auntie Flo... Hmmm... I've also been told Louisa had a very bad temper. Apparently she left a dent from a poker in James' forehead!
 
N. Blunn date written 1878, an L. Blunn no date, F. Blunn 1880 which could possibly be a cousin Florence my Auntie Flo used to write to, G. W. Blunn 1876 I was guessing George Alice's brother and possibly who my Grammie (Bernice) wrote to when she was younger, W. Nott probably James' brother, A. Blunn 1882 which is when Alice was born, Mercier Evaline Blunn 1902, Albert (Henry or Harry?) Blunn no date, and Frank Blunn 1879.

:blush: Didnt think of the birthday book.... and we have a family bible as well - shame on me :D

Looks like we know which Alice it was......... I have Albert Henry Blunn Born 1874, George William Blunn 1876 - 1947 (who married Violet), Frank born 1880, Florrie born 1885, Nellie born 1878, Sarah born 1887.

Merica Evelyn Blunn was born in the plough & Harrow pub daughter of..... George Blunn and Violet Knott who at the time were living with Louisa Page (nee Taylor/Knott) and Arthur Page, along with Clara, Alfred and Bertie.

Excellent work :p
 
p.s - re the temper - I know my nan definatly had one, and heard Clara could stick up for herself rather well, but reports from Alfred who met her are that she was rather icy and somewhat cold but they put it down to meeting her later in life after all the drama - who knew.

I know from the census records the older boys including james were pushed out a little and they were boarding in Birmingham at a young age.
 
Oh, well done!!!!!! *claps* Look what we two can do when we put our heads together! :D

And among my scribblings I had wondered if the G.W. Blunn was the George that Violet had married. I had surmised that he was Merica's father (Sorry about the original spelling - the handwriting is somewhat hard to read!) and was pretty sure Violet was the eldest half sibling (I was only off by one - heheheh...) of James. Nice to know I'm pretty good at connecting dots... LOL
 
Do you know when they were boarded in Birmingham? Perhaps that will give me a clue as to when they were sent to Canada.
 
Don't worry about Mercia's name - she was actually Mercy on the birth records but Mercia on the census we spent months trying to work out her real name lol.

As for William & James. The census and marriage dates etc, seem to indicate that William possible went first and James followed after he married. The biggest problem we have always had with this is there is no trace of anyone on the 1891 census. It seems Louisa somehow managed to hide them away. Mary had some trace of them in Birmingham boarding but I can't find it now. But from my own searchings, I remembered there was little trace of william after 1881, and it was supposed he possibly died but their were no death records. Another issue with William is that their were 3 william notts born in Wolverhampton between 1877 and 1881. One just named William, The 2nd William Fredrick and the 3rd William Henry. Our first inclanation was to go for the latter one given he is called William, but given he moved to Canada and was close to James I would be tempted to say he was either the 77 or 79 William.

Anywho, as for James, I have him on the records as follows:

1881 Living with William, Louisa & Co at 107 Lower Stafford Street, Wolverhampton -Age 5

1891 - No trace - possible match is James Nott b 1875 boarding in Rugeley working as a Stationers shopman

1899 - Possible jail term in Birmingham for 9 months.

1901 - James Knott - 28 back of 187 Cape Hill, Smethwick Birmingham, Regestration district - Kings Norton. Boarding living with various people including his brother Charles Knott B 1883 Wolverhampton.

James is working as a drawer of some kind - the handwriting is quite bad and can't make out what the first part says
Charles is working as a metal polisher.

We know from the records James Married Alice in 1903 in Birmingham.
 
From what Grammie has told me, neither James nor William ever had a middle name. Going by William's death notices and death certificate, he would have to have been born in 1877. There may be no trace on a census because Grammie says they came to Canada when James was between 11-14 to live with and work for (I think, work for...) Sir Walter Moberly. I've been trying to find information on Moberly's life - more than just the early part of surveying and building the Pacific railway that's all over the internet - the part where he was living in Manitoba. I think it may be when James, William and a few other boys were sent over to work. Apparently, Louisa sent them off to Canada? They both came back to England, at least once, and then back to Canada permenantly. The 1901 Census has William (I'm pretty sure our William - it's printed as W'm) Knott lodging in Vancouver with his birthdate registered as Feb. 11, 1878, Age 23, which supports that William came over again first. Then in the 1911 census, James is found along with Alice, Flo, Albert, Alice L., and George, plus William is registered as widowed with his sone William Alfred, age 6. William's birthdate is also now Feb. 1880, a year younger than James (ages 31 and 32). I know Flo was born in June 1903 in Kings Norton and Albert in 1906 in Vancouver, BC. All the other dates match birthday/years correctly on the census except James' and William's. I kinda think they just used whatever was going to work best for them. Perhaps James didn't want anyone knowing about his record?

The 1881 census also had William and Edward listed with Louisa. She's called "Lucy" and termed "widowed" so I never even thought to look for William Williams too - wait... is that the William you're refering to or J's brother William? There's too many Williams... lol

I'm having a devil of a time finding passenger lists online (other than ancestry that wants you to pay for a year) that relate to the proper time. I gave up in disgust yesterday after about 3 hours of searching fruitlessly. Thank goodness I have other things to look for as well! :p Now that I have a child of William's to look up, I'll search for other children of his as well. William was married twice. The first was Irene Kingcombe, Nov. 30, 1904 in Vancouver. She died... Mmmm... I'll have to find when, if I can. Then he married Caroline Jenny Wedig, Sept. 24, 1924. I don't know if he had any more children or whether William Alfred is an only child.

Do you know what a "Stationers shopman" is? Does it have anything to do with trains? Both brothers were conductors on the electric trams in Vancouver. James lost half of a foot in an train accident but we don't know when and we don't know any details. He never talked about it or the fire that happened when he was a child. Because of of the train accident, he walked with a limp. Because of the fire, he always wore an undershirt to cover his chest. Alice mentioned just minor bits of things to Grammie but I don't think she was ever told the full story. Apparently, James was a compulsive gambler (he liked to hang out at one of the secret speakeasies in Vancouver - he even brought Frank and Benice (Grammie) with him. She was only 2 or 3 at the time!) and very probably an alcoholic, as well. Grammie says he made quite a bit of money until he lost it all gambling.
 
I have had a very quick search for Morberly but only found this so far, which you have quite possibly already seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Moberly_(engineer).

Firstly to clarify as I know there are just too many William's in the family, the 1881 census has:

Lucy (Louisa) Nott - Widow age 26
James, Son age 5
William Son age 4
Edward son age 2
John Nott age 67 Father In law
William Williams 18 Lodger - but we know he was John's wife's grandchild.

I pay monthly for ancestry which is cheaper for me as I cancel it when I am not researching so have access to the shipping records on there. They have very little early records but stumbled across a bit of a gem of a record, which typically had to have a big water stain over the names so not sure of the first name but go the following out of it:

Knott - Male - Age 15 born 1878, Arrival 19 Aug 1893 on the Labrador from Liverpool England to Qubec & montreal harbour, Qubec.

Also re the 1891 census, I dont think we can presume they left before then as we have no record for any of the family not just James and William. There is nothing for Louisa or Violet etc. Has Alfreds & Berties place of birth as Bristol but we have never been able to find them either. You never know maybe they all went to Canada :D.
 
You're AWESOME, ginger_cat!!! Now I can try to narrow it down. I suspect it might be William judging by the birthdate. I don't believe they all went to Canada cuz Grammie says only the two older boys went to live with Moberly. Although, she also says he was in his preteens or early teens when he came over to live with Moberly. Going by that it would be between (11-14) 1886-1889. The travelling info is interesting cuz supposedly he/they went back and forth a few times.

And, yes, I have the wikipedia page and a couple of others. I also have a couple of newspaper articles copied from the ones Grammie has. She also has an original copy of his book "Early History Of Canadian Pacific Railway" and his "History of Cariboo Wagon Road". The articles tell a little more of his life than just surveying, etc. like that he founded and designed New Westminster (suburb of Vancouver) area before giving up in disgust at something and moving to California for a few years. Then he came back to Winnipeg, Manitoba for a few years and then back to Vancouver to live. At which time he was evidently a close family friend since he christened Alice Louisa "Babs" while she was sitting on his knee. He died in 1915 when Babs was 7.
 
Purrrkitten said:
You're AWESOME, ginger_cat!!!
Click to expand...

:blush: why thank you lol

I have stumbled across a couple of voyages later there was one in 1912 and another in 1919 but really can not be sure if its William or not (excuse the unintended pun).

I shall continue to dig through it and see what I find.

Oooh and one the point of stationers shopman - nope nothing to do with trains I am afraid, its to do with stationary I believe - paper, pens etc which makes me think its not James but he was a drawer in 1901.

My nan worked on the trams in Birmingham for a few years too but no gambling issues that I am aware of :D

I don't know if this ties into anything at the moment, but I have remembered that James Cousin, Louisa's sister Alice's son, Rupert Melling was living with Louisa in Birmingham on the 1910 record and he was a train drawer, or something of that kind. So seems to run in the family with the metal work and design etc.
 
Remembered something!!

I used to help out with inputting the census records and did quite a few for Canada & America and they showed the date people entered the country.

Checked the 1911 census for James and confirms he first came to Canada in 1890, and that Alice & Florence came in 1905. Now just need to find the records. Only downer is, it looks like the Canadian records on Ancestry start 1914.......
 
Excellent! Now I can try to put that date together with Moberly and I may have some more clues to follow! YEA!! :D Unfortunately the Canadian records are not accessible here without going to a place that has vital statistics - nowhere near where I live!

Alice and Florence left Thursday, October 26 and arrived November 2, 1905. I have a copy of one of their documents. Someone (Alice probably) wrote Rubery (?) depart 8.14 am
Newsh arr. 8.40 am
' ' depart 9.00 am arr. Lpool 11/15

On the back (which I didn't photocopy, I just wrote along the side of my copy) it says, "Arrive Montreal No. 2 - 1905". Unfortunately, the document is partially torn so part of it is missing. But it does say: From Liverpool to Quebec & Montreal. Turbine Triple S.S. "Virginian." Something aobut luggage and October 26th, at No. 6... I also have a copy of their baggage stickers. They have a big 2 on them so I assume that means they went 2nd class?

I don't know where Rubery, if that what it says, nor Newsh are (I assume they are places) - perhaps train stations?
 
Have been digging again.......

Looks like it was not only 2nd class but on a rather nice new ship too:

Ship Information

Ship Name: Virginian Years in service: 1905-1920 Funnels: 1 Masts: 2 Aliases: Drottningholm (1920), Brasil (1948), Homeland (1951) Shipping Line: Allan Ship Description: Built by Alexander Stephen & Sons, Ltd., Glasgow, Scotland. Tonnage: 10,754. Dimensions: 520' x 60' (540' o.l.). Triple-screw, 19 knots. Three steam turbines. Two masts and one funnel. History: Attained a speed of 19.8 knots during her trials. Nine boilers. Steam pressure of 180 lbs. per sq. in. Consumed about 2,500 tons of coal per voyage. Maiden voyage: Liverpool-Canada, April 6, 1905. She broke the Liverpool-Rimouski speed record, as she made it in 5 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes. She and her sister ship Victorian remained the fastest liners in the Canadian trade, until the new Canadian Pacific liners Empress of Britain and Empress of Ireland entered the service. Ownership of the Virginian was transferred to Canadian Pacific Line in 1917. Renamed: (a) Drottningholm (1920), (b) Brasil (1948), (c) Homeland (1951). Scrapped in Italy, 1955. Sister ship: Victorian. Note: These popular ships were the first trans-Atlantic liners to be equipped with steam turbines.
View attachment 55808


I then found out that the ship departed liverpool on 28/10/1905 & arrived in Montreal on 03/11/1905.
It was ran by the Allan Line Steamship company and is passanger list 432260, RG 76 Microfilm -T-486.

Not to be out done by ancestry who kept saying there were no matches I managed to search the Virginian passenger list from Nov 1905 and found......

View attachment 55809

Alice Knott age 23 born in Worcestershire, Married wife of a Motor man moved to Vancouver with her daughter Florence Beatrice Knott age 2.

Will e-mail the bigger pics but you get the idea..... now just for James!
 
Oh and ps. Rubery is an area just outside of kings norton and there is a train station there. If you google it there are loads of old pictures of the station, 2nd not sure what Newth is but it could be New st (new Street) which is the main train station in Birmingham which I where I would imagine someone would get a train to liverpool? Again if you google there are loads of pics. Unless they stopped off in Wales there is somewhere there called Newth in Cardiff.
 
JACKPOT!!! I found a webpage with a copy of first arrivals to Canada and guess who's on it!!! I found both James and William! The date is April 27, 1888 on the "Lake Ontario" ages 13 and 11 and says they first settled in Ontario. Since that matches our timeline perfectly, I'm guessing they lived with Moberly there.

*bounce bounce bounce* Sometimes I get lucky... LMAO

I'll post a pic of the clip I got from the site on facebook... :D
 
Purrrkitten said:
JACKPOT!!! I found a webpage with a copy of first arrivals to Canada and guess who's on it!!! I found both James and William! The date is April 27, 1888 on the "Lake Ontario" ages 13 and 11 and says they first settled in Ontario. Since that matches our timeline perfectly, I'm guessing they lived with Moberly there.

*bounce bounce bounce* Sometimes I get lucky... LMAO

I'll post a pic of the clip I got from the site on facebook... :D
Click to expand...

:1321: Excellent work - brains & beauty!! I was starting to despair at searching through all of

The badly transcriped records - the passanger lists have to be the worst quality I have seen! :2119:
 
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