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Identifying this Lines's drawing

Vivienne14

Vivienne14

Kentish Brummie Moderator
Staff member
For all you sleuths out there. This is claimed to be a Birmingham street but where ? It's by one of the Lines' family members. Any ideas ? Not a lot to go on except the street appears to be sloping away from view, it has a mix of retail and residential property, and probably quite a busy junction (bollards on the righ hand corner),


Screenshot_20230824_172728_Chrome.jpg
 
Sorry I don't. I expect somewhere between early to mid 1800s. Not much help !

It looks to me that the road drops down in the distance and then rises up again. At first I thought it might Bradford Street way, but it just doesn't look industrialised enough. Viv.
 
could be anywhere viv and the only possible clue i can see is that could that be a pubs lantern hanging on the building on the right corner

lyn
 
Morturn's second picture is dated 1830, which probably means the first picture is a similar date. If it's that early, I wonder if it could be a view from the top of New Street. The buildings on the right, along with the bollard, have a certain similarity with early photos of New Street from 50 -60 years later, (near the corner with Pinfold Street) - Of course, the whole of New Street was largely rebuilt and widened during the Victorian era.

- EDIT - On 2nd thought, probably not - Looking at Sherriffs 1807 Map of Birmingham, "Christchurch" - the big church that used to be at the top of New Street would have already been built by that date and therefore been on left - So that rules that out.
 
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I keep returning to this location: High Street, as it drops down to become Digbeth. I think (the long disappeared) Phillips Street or Bell Street is where Digbeth starts. Lots of changes of course since the drawing if this is the place.

As there's nothing that resembles the Market Hall in Line's drawing it would place it pre-1835.

The bollards on the corner, which I suggested might indicate a busy corner, certainly seems to be 120 years later, bollards being replaced by pedestrian barriers.

Also if I remember correctly there was an alley (Swan Passage/Alley) off High Street (right) which I think gave access to hotel stables. Maybe that could explain the presence of a horse trough (if it is one) in Lines' drawing ? Attached is Goad's 1889 insurance map.

What do others think ?

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I think you've nailed the location as being the High Street Vivienne. But maybe not quite on the corner with New Street. - At that point was a coaching Inn called The Swan - one-time haunt of Samuel Johnston. - It originally had a courtyard entrance for the horses, but was remodelled with the hotel set back from the road.

Here is an etching of it in 1829 - which is within a year of when the sketch may have been done...
swan1829.JPG
You can see lanterns of exactly the same type as shown in the sketch and a bollard near the corner. In the sketch you can see in the extreme bottom right-hand corner that the kerb is turning inwards - This could well be the coach entrance into the Swan hotel. The hotel was later reduced in size and the coachyard developed into a narrow road known as Swans Passage.

brummap1819.jpg
In this etching from much later (1887) - You can see the Sign for "The Swan Hotel" on the roof of the buildings on the right - But that was just an advertisement for the hotel which was behind them in Swan's passage - The passage came out near the bollard next to the lamppost where there is a kink in the pavement. The bollard may even have been one of those shown in the sketch, slightly repositioned
highst1887.JPG

You can imagine the sketch being drawn by someone staying in the Swan Hotel in 1830 - Maybe having arrived by stagecoach. Popping out early in the morning to do a quick sketch down the high street, and then wandering down to do another sketch in Bell Street (the sketch in the link given by Morturn)
 
That makes perfect sense, Dinger. Here's an 1836 map from the "Lost Streets of Birmingham" site which shows the coach yard opening onto High Street. It all makes a lot more sense, now ! Thanks. Viv.

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Dinger said:
I think you've nailed the location as being the High Street Vivienne. But maybe not quite on the corner with New Street. - At that point was a coaching Inn called The Swan - one-time haunt of Samuel Johnston. - It originally had a courtyard entrance for the horses, but was remodelled with the hotel set back from the road.

Here is an etching of it in 1829 - which is within a year of when the sketch may have been done...
View attachment 185491
You can see lanterns of exactly the same type as shown in the sketch and a bollard near the corner. In the sketch you can see in the extreme bottom right-hand corner that the kerb is turning inwards - This could well be the coach entrance into the Swan hotel. The hotel was later reduced in size and the coachyard developed into a narrow road known as Swans Passage.

View attachment 185494
In this etching from much later (1887) - You can see the Sign for "The Swan Hotel" on the roof of the buildings on the right - But that was just an advertisement for the hotel which was behind them in Swan's passage - The passage came out near the bollard next to the lamppost where there is a kink in the pavement. The bollard may even have been one of those shown in the sketch, slightly repositioned
View attachment 185492

You can imagine the sketch being drawn by someone staying in the Swan Hotel in 1830 - Maybe having arrived by stagecoach. Popping out early in the morning to do a quick sketch down the high street, and then wandering down to do another sketch in Bell Street (the sketch in the link given by Morturn)
Click to expand...
Magnificent sketches!
 
Like you said Vivienne, that would place it by the Rotunda. - In fact, pretty close to where the Bull Statue is, but 6 to 8 feet lower because of the way the ground level has been raised there. Nice to think of Sam Johnson standing on that spot, taking the night air after an evening in the Swan. - Maybe even Washington Irving getting off the stagecoach there and meeting up with his friend to be invited to spend Christmas at Aston Hall.
 
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